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Re: Stem Cell Therapies - Da Vinci Centre, Grand Cayman [DaVinciCentre] [ In reply to ]
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i don't know these folks and of course it is a pretty bad-form breach of etiquette just to show up on a reader forum as these folks have done.

but i'm going to leave it as a teaching moment. here is usada's page on stem cell therapy. i have no knowledge of the efficacy of stem cell treatment but as of now i can't find anything problematic from usada's POV.

anything else you all want to discuss, you of course may.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Stem Cell Therapies - Da Vinci Centre, Grand Cayman [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Yay, self promotion from an unregulated stem cell clinic (the FDA doesn't oversee any British territories) promising results from (unproven) treatments that are IRB approved (IRB's approve research, not treatments) using cells 'donated' from an unknown source sounds like something better left OFF this forum.


"Stem cell therapy" is such a vague term and causes a lot of confusion. Regenerative medicine is exciting and has a lot of potential. The combination of funding, public confusion, and "the high demand for novel therapies driven by patients with incurable diseases" presents those researchers with quite an uphill battle.
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Post deleted by DaVinciCentre [ In reply to ]
Re: Stem Cell Therapies - Da Vinci Centre, Grand Cayman [DaVinciCentre] [ In reply to ]
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DaVinciCentre wrote:
Dangle,

...
We would be more than happy to further the discussion on treatment types, experienced results, and our continuing research in Regenerative Medicine. Thank you for your comments and concerns, let's continue this conversation!

DVC

Let's not
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Re: Stem Cell Therapies - Da Vinci Centre, Grand Cayman [DaVinciCentre] [ In reply to ]
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Do you guys think the new shiv will have disc breaks or nah?
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Re: Stem Cell Therapies - Da Vinci Centre, Grand Cayman [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Last edited by: knighty76: Jul 12, 17 4:05
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Re: Stem Cell Therapies - Da Vinci Centre, Grand Cayman [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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At least this noob could figure out how to properly post a picture.
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Post deleted by DaVinciCentre [ In reply to ]
Re: Stem Cell Therapies - Da Vinci Centre, Grand Cayman [DaVinciCentre] [ In reply to ]
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Which IRB? What does the IRB cover? This generally isn't how IRB concepts are discussed/used
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Re: Stem Cell Therapies - Da Vinci Centre, Grand Cayman [dangle] [ In reply to ]
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I would add that anyone looking at a stem cell treatment to refer to the resources the International Society put together for patients at http://www.closerlookatstemcells.org/patient-resources. In particular I would ask for published, blinded studies that show the effect of the treatment. I would ask why my health insurance would not cover the cost if the treatment would indeed be effective?
I am sure a trip to the Cayman Islands is fun, but in my opinion, skip the clinic visit.
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Re: Stem Cell Therapies - Da Vinci Centre, Grand Cayman [iamuwere] [ In reply to ]
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iamuwere wrote:
Which IRB? What does the IRB cover? This generally isn't how IRB concepts are discussed/used

yeah, that's a big red flag. The way he's tossing "IRB" around gives me the impression that they don't understand the concept, or are trying to make their "treatment protocol" sound like it's got some sort of regulatory approval, when it doesn't.

___________________________________________________
Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.
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Re: Stem Cell Therapies - Da Vinci Centre, Grand Cayman [ In reply to ]
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Dan Bilzerian and Mel Gibson are getting stem cell therapy. Must be legit.

https://mobile.twitter.com/...705848676353?lang=en
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Re: Stem Cell Therapies - Da Vinci Centre, Grand Cayman [mdgreene] [ In reply to ]
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mdgreene wrote:
Do you guys think the new shiv will have disc breaks or nah?

you have to admit, his response was pretty good!

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Stem Cell Therapies - Da Vinci Centre, Grand Cayman [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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For sure. I think you should let him stay with that response. Very well articulated and could be spot on!
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Re: Stem Cell Therapies - Da Vinci Centre, Grand Cayman [DaVinciCentre] [ In reply to ]
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DaVinciCentre wrote:
Good question. While Specialized will likely release a disc brake model eventually in line with recent trends, it's unlikely they would abandon their rim brake model so soon as it would cut off too large of their market, but we'll see!

Meanwhile...

Stem Cell Fact: Pro athletes have turned to cellular therapies in recent years for their persistent injuries, including Bartolo Colon, Rafael Nadal, Chris Johnson, Peyton Manning, and hundreds of others!

DVC
Is Bartolo doing the stem cell thing right? Looks like he's been eating them...


"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz
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Re: Stem Cell Therapies - Da Vinci Centre, Grand Cayman [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
mdgreene wrote:
Do you guys think the new shiv will have disc breaks or nah?


you have to admit, his response was pretty good!

That was a good response!

It still doesn't change the fact that Da Vinci Centre is a beauty clinic that is trying to cash in on unproven techniques that people with terrible diseases (It's easy enough to search MS patients who reported all their symptoms being back shortly) and athletes with loads of money (desperate to stay at the top of their game...let's not get into the NFL 'drug policy' either) are paying 5 figures for an initial visit. If this stuff really worked as promised, do you really think the country we live in would not be capitalizing on it? It's an expensive hoop to jump through just to knock down some inflammation for awhile.

Anybody with a basic level understanding of what the FDA oversees (and their history of going after stem cell "therapy" in the US....which is way they first moved to the Cayman Islands), what an IRB does (or more specifically doesn't do), and what the heck those different therapies in the first post even are would know the sales pitch in the initial post is weak and doesn't belong here.

Genuine question: If there were threads about other performance enhancing "treatments" and "therapies" not allowed in the USA (I understand this forum is utilized at an international level, but is USA based) would they be allowed?
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Re: Stem Cell Therapies - Da Vinci Centre, Grand Cayman [dangle] [ In reply to ]
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dangle wrote:
Genuine question: If there were threads about other performance enhancing "treatments" and "therapies" not allowed in the USA (I understand this forum is utilized at an international level, but is USA based) would they be allowed?

genuine answer: probably not, tho i'd like to see the thread before i make a blanket statement. just, if you look at my reply to the 1st post i checked, and i linked to USADA's page on stem cell research. it doesn't seem to me to be banned.

now, this is different than an FDA restriction, or other legally enforced embargo or prohibition. but we have readers in canada, the UK, australia, mexico, france, germany. i don't feel that the discussion of something legal in many or all of those countries should be banned from this forum because it might not be legal (or yet legal) in the U.S.

i'm letting this thread stand because if there is anything - good or bad, positive or negative - that could be learned about stem cell therapy, perhaps we'll learn it.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Stem Cell Therapies - Da Vinci Centre, Grand Cayman [dangle] [ In reply to ]
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Stem cell treatment (is that different from therapy?) isn't banned in the US. There's even an ST'er that had it done recently:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Diary_of_a_Stem_Cell_Knee_Patient_-_Part_Two_P6150691/?search_string=stem%20cell#p6150691



Strava
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Re: Stem Cell Therapies - Da Vinci Centre, Grand Cayman [gmh39] [ In reply to ]
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gmh39 wrote:
Stem cell treatment (is that different from therapy?) isn't banned in the US. There's even an ST'er that had it done recently:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Diary_of_a_Stem_Cell_Knee_Patient_-_Part_Two_P6150691/?search_string=stem%20cell#p6150691



It's an extremely vague term. There's some procedures allowed in the USA where they take blood or cells from the patient and put them right back in without any real manipulation. There's some procedures where the only places it's NOT illegal (I prefer that term over 'legal' in this case) are Cayman Islands, Russia, North Korea...and possibly Japan or Germany but I don't remember. Cayman Islands are quickly getting the reputation for 'medical tourism.'

I am aware of the linked thread. If I remember right, he (and somebody else in that thread) spent a lot of money and didn't really have anything to note months later.

I'll reply more when I have more time.
Last edited by: dangle: Jul 12, 17 8:00
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Re: Stem Cell Therapies - Da Vinci Centre, Grand Cayman [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
dangle wrote:
Genuine question: If there were threads about other performance enhancing "treatments" and "therapies" not allowed in the USA (I understand this forum is utilized at an international level, but is USA based) would they be allowed?


genuine answer: probably not, tho i'd like to see the thread before i make a blanket statement. just, if you look at my reply to the 1st post i checked, and i linked to USADA's page on stem cell research. it doesn't seem to me to be banned.

now, this is different than an FDA restriction, or other legally enforced embargo or prohibition. but we have readers in canada, the UK, australia, mexico, france, germany. i don't feel that the discussion of something legal in many or all of those countries should be banned from this forum because it might not be legal (or yet legal) in the U.S.

i'm letting this thread stand because if there is anything - good or bad, positive or negative - that could be learned about stem cell therapy, perhaps we'll learn it.



Thanks for the reply and well articulated answer.


USADA is a little vague on their stance, but that's partially because 'stem cell therapy' is such a broad term. USADA simply says, "Stem cell injections may or may not be prohibited, which depends on how the product is manipulated or modified for use." and that you should contact them for specifics.


Quite definitive.


This sort of mirrors what's allowed in the USA. Having a licensed physician in the USA take your blood, toss it in a centrifuge to make it 'platelet-rich' and inject it into your own joint all in one appointment is okay and USADA even mentions that as an example. If those 'stem cell injections' involve cells that are manipulated via culturing, adding 'things' from other sources to the mix, taken outside of the clinic, or a couple other areas, then they are definitely not allowed according to the FDA. I have little doubt that USADA would side with the FDA and say that any of those 'treatments' that you have to go to the Cayman Islands, North Korea, Russia, Japan or Germancy for (and are also being advertised by the person representing a Cayman Islands beauty clinic) would not be okay for regulated athletes. The problem is that both are considered stem cell therapy.


Stem cell therapy encompasses many things. There's the above mentioned legal-in-the-USA platelet-rich plasma (spinning down the patient's own blood and putting it right back into them in a specific joint). There's taking cells from a patient in a variety of manners, adding things or culturing the the cells in a lab and then eventually injecting the new compound back in the patient (not legal in the USA). Another service advertised in the initial post (allogeneic), which seems to go against the USADA statement, involves putting other people's (or animal's in some cases in the ol' Cayman Islands...moo) into a patient and is also not legal as a treatment in most of the world. There's also plenty of other things in the 'stem cell therapy' world, but these are probably the most relevant to the sports/athletic world.

Part of how these clinics get their start is because most of the treatments are labeled as cosmetics and are not really regulated by anybody. Exactly like supplements, the FDA is hands off. We have sure had the supplements talk(s) on St quite a bit. It's way easier for USADA/WADA to publish a list of the exact compounds not allowed to be found in the body, even if they were mistakenly included in a perfectly legal (not to be confused with regulated) supplement. That's kind of how the stem cell based cosmetic industry has operated. There's plenty of reports online about these beauty clinics doing treatments that cost more than my car and ending with pretty weird results. Once they become a drug (in this case), the USA stuff gets the smackdown by the FDA.

It could be interesting to ping a USADA rep and ask about these specific treatments not allowed in the USA, like the ones advertised above, being allowed for athletes complying with the USADA drug testing (IRB approved??) protocols. Maybe that should be the deciding factor?


I do appreciate the kind words and clever reply from the Da Vinci rep. That was really good.

Edit: Forgot an e in allogeneic
Last edited by: dangle: Jul 12, 17 10:51
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Post deleted by DaVinciCentre [ In reply to ]
Re: Stem Cell Therapies - Da Vinci Centre, Grand Cayman [DaVinciCentre] [ In reply to ]
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DaVinciCentre wrote:
Dangle,

To clarify on treatment types:

PRP - As you mentioned, a simple injection of your own previously extracted cells into a specific site.

Benefit: Most cost effective, however significantly less cells injected (~5 million) reducing treatment effectiveness. Very popular in US, and requires little to no set up or training. Many clinics only offer this form of therapy for these reasons.

Adipose Derived - Your own cells, extracted via micro-liposuction, sent to the US Lab (which is FDA regulated) to be cultured an multiplied over 30-45 days. The only ingredients added to the patient's cells are in the form of the cell media used to grow the culture, no "performance enhancing" additives or deregulated substances.

Benefit: Extracted cells (~5 million) multiplied to roughly 1 billion cells, vastly increasing treatment effectiveness.

Allogeneic Derived - Stem cells drawn from human cord blood donations or "Wharton's Jelly". This type has been recently shown in studies to be the most effective form of stem cell treatment, and is currently being tested for use in over 80 different diseases and disorders.

Benefit: Readily available with no need for any form of extraction from patient, no waiting period for cell culture.

Hope this helps expand upon the basic principles and benefits of each therapy type.

DVC


I understand what you're saying and am familiar with a lot of this from my daytime gig. Your clarification and explanations are well written and have a kind tone to them. Thank you.

I would like to note that your definitions of 'adipose derived' and 'allogeneic derived' apply to Da Vinci's claimed services and not stem cell therapy in general. Shipping somebody's cells across an ocean for a lab to work with and send back for a future injection is way different than what's allowed in the USA. It's known in the stem cell world that your Cayman Island neighbors are adding growth factors and other compounds into their injections. Bovines were also used as the allogeneic sources in at least one instance.

Even if Da Vinci is head and shoulders above the rest, they are still offering techniques not allowed in the USA. I stand by my statement that I have little doubt that USADA would say "no" if asked if these specific stem cell treatments would be allowed under their rules. It's an area where the knowledge based and pace of technology really made it hard for a group like USADA to make a blanket statement about. If I'm correct in that guess, I don't think the ST forums are an appropriate place to advertise these treatments. If I'm wrong, then I'll quietly exit the room. Your wit is certainly welcome here though.
Last edited by: dangle: Jul 12, 17 11:11
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