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Re: You (I) can never go home... to Alabama... Just a whine post [PrinceMax] [ In reply to ]
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PrinceMax wrote:
I don't agree that the deck is stacked against anyone in the U.S. People make horrible decisions and then compound them by making even worse decisions. If you graduate high school, don't have a baby until you're an adult and don't commit criminal acts your chances of living in poverty are extremely slim.
There are plenty of non white groups doing exceedingly well in this country. East Indian, Asian etc. So it's not skin color that's holding people back.



Since I started this thread with an example of state constitutionally mandated form of racial discrimination (arguably one example of deck stacking) and 40% of a ballot supporting this position 17 years ago, would you accept that some might not believe repeal of this specific instance removed the last piece of institutional bias against minorities (chose your flavor) from our books and that we're not yet to the place where "just work harder" will rise everyone out of poverty? I'm not asking you to agree with that position, but just acknowledge how a logical personal might not be able to automatically agree with yours?.

Edit (add): Pulling back the stick to the poverty piece (regardless of color), my wife and I were discussing this as I made her lunch this morning. She immediately brought up the fact that a lot of her clients on Section 8 housing (government subsidized) have wanted to go to college (think local community / vocational training, not big nationally recognized state schools) but won't because they would lose their Section 8 eligibility. Don't want to dis-rail the conversation on the pro/cons of that particular policy (both sides of the argument I can see merit in), but it is another example of a how some of her clients feel they have to decide between housing and education (upward mobility) re: institutional bias potentially deterring improvements in the life of poverty populations.
Last edited by: MOP_Roy: Jul 12, 17 6:35
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Re: You (I) can never go home... to Alabama... Just a whine post [H-] [ In reply to ]
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H- wrote:
Further, it is simply not true in the year 2000, or today, that 40% of Alabamians are opposed to inter-racial marriage. First, you need to specify what percentage of the populace voted in that election? (Answer, about 15% of registered voters voted no.) I don't ) Second, research what percentage of Alabamians vote "NO" reflexively on constitutional amendments without even reading them in Alabama (there are several or as many as a dozen on every ballot)? (This was pointed out by SL.)

Your posts in this thread are, frankly, odd. I can only assume you are willfully ignoring some of the things Roy has written to fit your preconceived narrative. You accused him of having a nerve triggered when I think he has responded incredibly calmly to your bizarre posts.

Anyway, beyond that, you clearly don't understand statistics very well. If 40% vote NO to something, but it was only 15% of the total population, that does not mean that only 15% of the population feels that way. Think of the vote as a poll. Even a poll of 1000, if gathered well, will very accurately depict the entire population's view. So yes, it is safe to say that in the 2000 close to 40% of the population of AL was against interracial marriage. Indeed, it may have been higher, if there were people who chose not to vote because they thought there was no point (ie. the law would be changed regardless of their vote), or those who would feel embarrassed to admit their vote.

And even though ONLY 64% of the entire US population was in favor of interracial marriage in the year 2000 (according to the chart posted earlier), that does not mean that 36% were against it. The remaining 36% likely included many who were agnostic to the issue and would certainly not have voted to maintain anti-interracial marriage laws.

You should read this book.
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Re: You (I) can never go home... to Alabama... Just a whine post [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Let us not forget Alabama was the state that performed the Syphilis Study which didn't end until 1972. Hell Mengele didn't have shit on those MFing white Alabama doctors. 1972 wasn't that long ago either.

"Your Attitude Determines Your Altitude."
Last edited by: rob2681: Jul 12, 17 6:34
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Re: You (I) can never go home... to Alabama... Just a whine post [rob2681] [ In reply to ]
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Are you aware of what goes on in supposedly enlightened places like New York City? And not 40 years ago, but today. NYC had a parade last month in which the man of honor was the head of a domestic terrorist organization. He ran a group that set bombs off in the city. He murdered New Yorkers and now New York is honoring him. He remains unapologetic about his crimes.
We have a state legislator and former city councilman who boasted, while in office, about how he wanted to assault whites. His district has kept him in office for 2 decades.
Such is the racial politics of NYC. Good luck finding a place without idiots.
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Re: You (I) can never go home... to Alabama... Just a whine post [PrinceMax] [ In reply to ]
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I had no idea that Nelson Mandela was in the US!
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Re: You (I) can never go home... to Alabama... Just a whine post [rob2681] [ In reply to ]
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rob2681 wrote:
Let us not forget Alabama was the state that performed the Syphilis Study which didn't end until 1972. Hell Mengele didn't have shit on those MFing white Alabama doctors. 1972 wasn't that long ago either.


Good lord, man. The US government was conducting that study, not "Alabama." And it was in Tuskegee, home of the Tuskegee Airmen, Tuskegee University, Booker T Washington, and George Washington Carver. But by all means put the most negative slant on it as possible. There has been so much misinformation and negative bias in this thread that hardly any of it is more than personal opinion being hidden in "facts" that aren't real. The number of people against interracial marriage in Alabama in 2000 reflected that of the rest of the nation, marlin kill tournaments aren't more prevalent in the south, and "Alabama" didn't conduct the Syphilis experiment. I don't care if you don't like it down here, not everyone can live here. I do mind when you basically tell lies to make the south look backwards.
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Re: You (I) can never go home... to Alabama... Just a whine post [PrinceMax] [ In reply to ]
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PrinceMax wrote:
Are you aware of what goes on in supposedly enlightened places like New York City? And not 40 years ago, but today. NYC had a parade last month in which the man of honor was the head of a domestic terrorist organization. He ran a group that set bombs off in the city. He murdered New Yorkers and now New York is honoring him. He remains unapologetic about his crimes.
We have a state legislator and former city councilman who boasted, while in office, about how he wanted to assault whites. His district has kept him in office for 2 decades.
Such is the racial politics of NYC. Good luck finding a place without idiots.


For the record, NYC isn't on our list of places to look at either :) Although I would like to visit there and do the typical tourist things once.

All places, North, South, Mid-West, East, West have idiots and also many good people doing good things. I'll keep visiting the south everyone once in a while, can't miss the Iron Bowl for almost any reason, but at the end of the day, each person / family makes their own decisions based on their own calculus. I'll always be "from the South" since I grew up there and spent the majority of my life (to this point) there. I just probably won't ever move my family back there permanently. There's always a shot (one son really wants to attend UNC and another wants to go to Auburn like mom and dad did and there's always the chance my wife gets 'that' job offer), but generally my wife and I look to other places when we talk about the future. As I'm sure other families look to where they feel they would feel most comfortable, using whatever metric is important to them.
Last edited by: MOP_Roy: Jul 12, 17 7:29
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Re: You (I) can never go home... to Alabama... Just a whine post [Spiridon Louis] [ In reply to ]
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Your comments minimize what those white Al doctors did to poor black men. Yes they were Alabama doctors. They lived there, raised their families there, went to church there. All the while letting black men carry Syphilis for the rest of their lives even while Penicillin was a known cure at the time. How many of those black men passed the disease on to other black women? How many children were born with infant defects and sicknesses. How can you minimize the utter havoc white Alabama doctors inflicted on the black population in Alabama? That was one of the most horrific medical studies in history. And yes it happened in Alabama by white doctors.

"Your Attitude Determines Your Altitude."
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Re: You (I) can never go home... to Alabama... Just a whine post [Spiridon Louis] [ In reply to ]
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Spiridon Louis wrote:
The number of people against interracial marriage in Alabama in 2000 reflected that of the rest of the nation

Regardless of the other issues in this thread, I find it ironic that you complain about false facts, and then give a false fact.

See my post above. It is not true that 40% of the US population was against interracial marriage in 2000. 64% were willing to say they were in favor, but that does not mean 36% were against.

Beyond that I think Roy makes perfectly valid points. There is racial and religious bigotry everywhere, but he finds it to be more prevalent in AL compared to other places he's lived. He's saying it's based on his own experiences, but he's also citing evidence that points to it. Yes, different parts of this country and every country may have issues of intolerance, and some more than others. Some want to be surrounded by like-minded people. A friend of mine who lives in NY is currently staying with her family in AL and dealing with religious intolerance against her by her family. She is a beautiful, loving, kind person and yet because she is not going to church and being fully Christian, her family thinks she has the devil inside her (her father actually said that to her last night). It's very sad. Clearly one can't extrapolate from one example, but let's be real, there is plenty of that kind of attitude in the south, and if Roy prefers not to live somewhere that those attitudes are very prevalent (and saying "very prevalent" is different to painting everyone with the same brush), that's his prerogative.
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Re: You (I) can never go home... to Alabama... Just a whine post [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
See my post above. It is not true that 40% of the US population was against interracial marriage in 2000. 64% were willing to say they were in favor

And what percent in Alabama was willing to say they were in favor of it? I'll hang up and listen ................
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Re: You (I) can never go home... to Alabama... Just a whine post [Spiridon Louis] [ In reply to ]
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Spiridon Louis wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:

See my post above. It is not true that 40% of the US population was against interracial marriage in 2000. 64% were willing to say they were in favor


And what percent in Alabama was willing to say they were in favor of it? I'll hang up and listen ................

I'll give you a clue, it wasn't 64%.
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Re: You (I) can never go home... to Alabama... Just a whine post [rob2681] [ In reply to ]
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rob2681 wrote:
Your comments minimize what those white Al doctors did to poor black men. Yes they were Alabama doctors. They lived there, raised their families there, went to church there. All the while letting black men carry Syphilis for the rest of their lives even while Penicillin was a known cure at the time. How many of those black men passed the disease on to other black women? How many children were born with infant defects and sicknesses. How can you minimize the utter havoc white Alabama doctors inflicted on the black population in Alabama? That was one of the most horrific medical studies in history. And yes it happened in Alabama by white doctors.

I'm not sure how my saying it was the US government and not the state of Alabama which conducted that study minimizes its horrific nature. The people in charge of the study weren't from Alabama and many who conducted it, including the head nurse, were black.
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Re: You (I) can never go home... to Alabama... Just a whine post [Spiridon Louis] [ In reply to ]
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The crux is that 40% were so opposed that they were willing to support legal action against inter-racial marriages. That is categorically different from merely expressing a personal opinion. Comparing the two different scenarios is engaging in a false equivalence.
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Re: You (I) can never go home... to Alabama... Just a whine post [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
Spiridon Louis wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:

See my post above. It is not true that 40% of the US population was against interracial marriage in 2000. 64% were willing to say they were in favor


And what percent in Alabama was willing to say they were in favor of it? I'll hang up and listen ................

I'll give you a clue, it wasn't 64%.

You couldn't bring yourself to say it was 60%, huh?
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Re: You (I) can never go home... to Alabama... Just a whine post [Spiridon Louis] [ In reply to ]
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There were also Jewish people who helped Nazis send there own neighborhoods to concentrate camps. It doesn't lessen this evil put upon by white doctors in Alabama. The fact the you could even write that the head nurse speaks volumes about your feelings to this evil. I'd respect you if you said that was a fucked up time in Alabama's history period. But instead you and the other poster who goes on about black personal responsibility show how a significant percentage of the white population can't own up to the evils that your people did to black throughout US history. I visited Berlin a couple of years ago. The Germans do not try and sweep under the rug their evil period in history. There's so many monuments that remind them of the horrors of the Nazis and what they did to the Jewish people. And they're a better people for it. South Africa had the Truth and Reconciliation apartheid committes, and their a better people for it. Maybe America could learn from them.

"Your Attitude Determines Your Altitude."
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Re: You (I) can never go home... to Alabama... Just a whine post [rob2681] [ In reply to ]
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rob2681 wrote:
There were also Jewish people who helped Nazis send there own neighborhoods to concentrate camps. It doesn't lessen this evil put upon by white doctors in Alabama. The fact the you could even write that the head nurse speaks volumes about your feelings to this evil. I'd respect you if you said that was a fucked up time in Alabama's history period. But instead you and the other poster who goes on about black personal responsibility show how a significant percentage of the white population can't own up to the evils that your people did to black throughout US history. I visited Berlin a couple of years ago. The Germans do not try and sweep under the rug their evil period in history. There's so many monuments that remind them of the horrors of the Nazis and what they did to the Jewish people. And they're a better people for it. South Africa had the Truth and Reconciliation apartheid committes, and their a better people for it. Maybe America could learn from them.

It was an absolutely fucked up thing that this COUNTRY did. You seem to take comfort that it happened in a small town in Alabama as if it was not a national study conducted by our nation's government. I don't think anyone feels good about what happened there, but blaming it on "white Alabama doctors" is bullshit.
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Re: You (I) can never go home... to Alabama... Just a whine post [Spiridon Louis] [ In reply to ]
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Spiridon Louis wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
Spiridon Louis wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:

See my post above. It is not true that 40% of the US population was against interracial marriage in 2000. 64% were willing to say they were in favor


And what percent in Alabama was willing to say they were in favor of it? I'll hang up and listen ................


I'll give you a clue, it wasn't 64%.


You couldn't bring yourself to say it was 60%, huh?

I guess you're missing the point. 40% of AL were against it, to the point of being willing to go out and cast a ballot, while among the 36% of the nation who, in a poll, did not tick the box saying they supported interracial marriage, many were likely without a strong opinion. How were the questions presented, were there only two options...? If, say, those 'agnostics' were another 10%, that takes the number nationally to 74% who were not AGAINST interracial marriage.
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Re: You (I) can never go home... to Alabama... Just a whine post [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
Spiridon Louis wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
Spiridon Louis wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:

See my post above. It is not true that 40% of the US population was against interracial marriage in 2000. 64% were willing to say they were in favor


And what percent in Alabama was willing to say they were in favor of it? I'll hang up and listen ................


I'll give you a clue, it wasn't 64%.


You couldn't bring yourself to say it was 60%, huh?


I guess you're missing the point. 40% of AL were against it, to the point of being willing to go out and cast a ballot, while among the 36% of the nation who, in a poll, did not tick the box saying they supported interracial marriage, many were likely without a strong opinion. How were the questions presented, were there only two options...? If, say, those 'agnostics' were another 10%, that takes the number nationally to 74% who were not AGAINST interracial marriage.

I'm not missing any point at all. 60% of AL were for it, to the point of being willing to go out and cast a ballot, while among 64% of the nation who, in a poll, only had to tick a box saying they supported interracial marriage, many were likely without a strong opinion. Just that easy.

Now, wow me with your knowledge of Alabama's state constitution, what is required to amend it, how that affects people's voting behavior, etc. and tell me how you think that may have affected the results of that ballot item to the negative. Tell me how the issue polled in Alabama and WHY people voted against it. How many people vote against EVERY amendment in Alabama.

And I'll re-state that I lived here and voted in favor of that amendment and was pissed that it didn't pass 100 to 0. But to use the 60/40 vote as some kind of evidence for saying Alabama is backwards and racist is unfair.
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Re: You (I) can never go home... to Alabama... Just a whine post [PrinceMax] [ In reply to ]
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I don't agree that the deck is stacked against anyone in the U.S.

Opportunity in this country is wildly unequal, and becoming more so in past couple of decades. Social mobility (up or down) lags behind many other countries. Examples abound. It is certainly possible to overcome this inequality on an individual basis, mostly via geographical relocation (which has generally led to a lower opportunity environment for those who remain). Being relentlessly and blindly "bootstrappy" (nod to trail) is not a replacement for sober analysis and honest policy re-evaluation.
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Re: You (I) can never go home... to Alabama... Just a whine post [PrinceMax] [ In reply to ]
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PrinceMax wrote:
Are you aware of what goes on in supposedly enlightened places like New York City? And not 40 years ago, but today. NYC had a parade last month in which the man of honor was the head of a domestic terrorist organization. He ran a group that set bombs off in the city. He murdered New Yorkers and now New York is honoring him. He remains unapologetic about his crimes.
We have a state legislator and former city councilman who boasted, while in office, about how he wanted to assault whites. His district has kept him in office for 2 decades.
Such is the racial politics of NYC. Good luck finding a place without idiots.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/...ps://www.google.com/

I was curious (and bored as my boys explore a local St Louis activity center) so I got my google-fu on to see what you referenced. Personally, it seems to me to be very poor form to celebrate this particular individual and apparently that feeling was shared by local and state officials as well as usual parade sponsors (who pulled their sponsorship) and among a large number of the local population as well. Reading this singular article on the issue leads me to believe there was more than a little push back to honoring him.
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Re: You (I) can never go home... to Alabama... Just a whine post [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Anyway, beyond that, you clearly don't understand statistics very well. If 40% vote NO to something, but it was only 15% of the total population, that does not mean that only 15% of the population feels that way. Think of the vote as a poll. Even a poll of 1000, if gathered well, will very accurately depict the entire population's view. So yes, it is safe to say that in the 2000 close to 40% of the population of AL was against interracial marriage. Indeed, it may have been higher, if there were people who chose not to vote because they thought there was no point (ie. the law would be changed regardless of their vote), or those who would feel embarrassed to admit their vote.
And even though ONLY 64% of the entire US population was in favor of interracial marriage in the year 2000 (according to the chart posted earlier), that does not mean that 36% were against it. The remaining 36% likely included many who were agnostic to the issue and would certainly not have voted to maintain anti-interracial marriage laws.

I continue to contend that the 40% number is misleading. Furthermore, I contend that in terms of percentage, MORE Alabama citizens are in favor interracial marriage than "64% the entire US population."

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Think of the vote as a poll. Even a poll of 1000, if gathered well, will very accurately depict the entire population's view.

As you admit, the poll must be gathered well. Both SL and I have explained why a vote on an Alabama Constitutional Amendment is a poor poll methodology. Please research this matter. There are plenty of legal and political science articles that discuss this matter. Just to give you an idea, last November there were 14 Constitutional Amendments on the ballot. I did not read or vote on any. Over the years, I've been told by people that they just vote NO on all amendments.

I contend that closer to 67% of Alabamians favor interracial marriage and that only 21% are opposed. From a 2012 poll:

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Q24 Do you think that interracial marriage should be legal or illegal?
Legal ............................................................... 67% Illegal .............................................................. 21% Not sure .......................................................... 12%

2012 Public Policy Polling, Alabama Survey Results, Q. 24.

I understand statistics. I provided the 15% vote number because in this thread there was continual references to 40% vote. I agree that in certain cases it may be reasonable to view a vote as a poll. In this case it is not.

________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev
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Re: You (I) can never go home... to Alabama... Just a whine post [MOP_Roy] [ In reply to ]
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MOP_Roy wrote:

The kicker to me is that 40% of the people that voted in the 2000 ballot on that particular issue voted in favor of maintaining the Alabama law as it (i.e. keeping interracial marriage 'illegal').

Its absolutely unfathomable to me that in the year 2000, 40% of voters in any state in our nation would vote in favor of keeping interracial marriage illegal.

I have a Masters of Science in Systems Analysis, a large portion of which was statistics and multi-variate regressions, so I tend to be very specific in my word choice when I refer to numbers. So in the attempt to be completely accurate, my first statement (bolded above) I believe was in fact an accurate description of the event which drew my alleged "outrage". I will admit to a bit of loose-ness with my language in my second statement (again bolded again) so for that, my apologies.

With regard to who voted and who didn't, that particular piece of semantics is not that important to me because I actually care about the WHAT the people that VOTED say. For example, I don't care about the opinions of those individuals who chose not to vote in our Presidential elections, what I care about is how many votes each candidate receive from those who did vote. That number (as it is translated into electoral votes) gives me a President. I care about what actual voters who vote think; they are the ones whose decisions matter.
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