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Re: Political Cannabalism in California [ZenosArrow] [ In reply to ]
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ZenosArrow wrote:
one thing this trumpcare plan shows is the right has conceded the argument . . . the federal government should play a strong role in healthcare . . . it's a question of which buttons to push and levers to pull.

I completely disagree. They are not saying the federal government "should" play a strong role, they are recognizing it must, given the mess created by ObamaCare.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Political Cannabalism in California [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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Tibbsy wrote:
https://thinkprogress.org/trump-promised-to-repeal-obamacare-many-times-ab9500dad31e

That article does not say what you apparently think it says.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Political Cannabalism in California [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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It does. Your leader said he had a plan. Others said the same thing but Google is front loaded with stories of the current fight and I don't see the point of digging deeper into Google to find quotes you will deny. We all know they claimed this. To say they didn't is the same as saying the Democrats don't see Obama as the second coming of Christ.
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Re: Political Cannabalism in California [Tibbsy] [ In reply to ]
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Tibbsy wrote:
It does. Your leader said he had a plan. Others said the same thing but Google is front loaded with stories of the current fight and I don't see the point of digging deeper into Google to find quotes you will deny. We all know they claimed this. To say they didn't is the same as saying the Democrats don't see Obama as the second coming of Christ.

Do you ever read the shit the post or are we back to same ridiculous substance-free drivel we all got to enjoy back when your user name was Mr. Tibbs?

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Political Cannabalism in California [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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First of all, huh? You are denying that the Republicans have said all along they have a better plan than Obamacare. We are done talking. You are saying that all along the Republicans didn't have a counter. I don't know where to go from this.
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Re: Political Cannabalism in California [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
Tibbsy wrote:
https://thinkprogress.org/trump-promised-to-repeal-obamacare-many-times-ab9500dad31e


That article does not say what you apparently think it says.

Well I don't know what you think it says but it does say this and it's a great quote. A great quote. A great quote.

The Orange Buffoon wrote:
We are going to repeal Obamacare and replace it with something much better, much better much better.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Political Cannabalism in California [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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Well, they couldn't come up with anything worse.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Political Cannabalism in California [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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It doesn't say anything about having a plan. It says they will replace it with something better.. When they have one. LOL!
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Re: Political Cannabalism in California [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
I love this argument - "the GOP had one hundred years to think about replacing ObamaCare! You would think they would have a plan!"

Right.

ObamaCare could have been repealed after a year or two or three without any noticeable affect. But, we are nearly 8 years into ObamaCare (still without the worst aspect -- employer mandate -- fully kicking in, and there is no easy solution anymore.

Congratulations President Obama, you achieved what you sought - reliance on government and the creation of an entirely new class of government dependents. Well done ... well done ...

Now, let's ignore the fact that huge segments of those on ObamaCare really do not have health insurance coverage and certainly do not have affordable health care. The deductibles are so high, all they really have is a catastrophic coverage plan most will never use.

https://www.nytimes.com/...all-but-useless.html

http://money.cnn.com/...ffordable/index.html


Let's also grossly exaggerate the number of those who may -- may -- lose coverage. Let's ignore simple facts that one of the largest drivers in reducing uninsured rates was the provision allowing kids to stay on their parents' plan under age 26 and ignore the fact that many, many states already allowed that prior to ObamaCare.

http://money.cnn.com/...obamacare/index.html


Instead, let's just keep asking why the GOP cannot fix the cluster fuck from the prior Administration simply by snapping its fingers.

I love your lack of an argument. You do this every time the ACA comes up. It is horrible, it doesn't cover people, it is too expensive, it is too late to repeal now, ...

But when asked what you want, which was the whole point of my post but you chose to ignore that and focus on the little tidbit you could sink your teeth into, you punt.

Let's implement the House bill. Rollback the ACA and Medicaid exactly how Ryan wants too. Then what? When we boot people off Medicaid how do we pay for them? You already said they wouldn't be denied care. How do we pay for them? Haphazard through the health care industry writing off the care at inflated amounts to avoid taxes and passing on the real costs to patients who do pay? Universal care like most of the civilized world? Some other plan that Ryan, Trump, and McConnell have hidden in their knapsacks? Some inventive way no one has ever dreamt up?

I'm all ears. But I won't hold my breath.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: Political Cannabalism in California [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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j p o wrote:


I love your lack of an argument. You do this every time the ACA comes up. It is horrible, it doesn't cover people, it is too expensive, it is too late to repeal now, ...


Bullshit. I have repeatedly stated what I believe to be the first steps. I'm not an expert and have no idea all the needs to be taken into account to fully repeal ObamaCare. But, I do know it is a disaster that is wholly unsustainable and has not even had the worst parts kick in yet. So, I know something has to be done.

The few steps I would take, which I have stated at least a dozen times now in various threads on this topic, are as follows (in no particular order):

1. Expand Medicaid to cover low income individuals just above the poverty level.
2. Continue to allow children to remain on parents' plan, but increase age to 30.
3. Break down state barriers on insurance pools.
4. Neuter insurance companies, rather than further empowering them.

Those are just a few over views. This article explains in more detail the steps required to begin to fix this mess: https://www.nationalaffairs.com/...to-replace-obamacare

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
Last edited by: JSA: Jul 5, 17 8:34
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Re: Political Cannabalism in California [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
j p o wrote:


I love your lack of an argument. You do this every time the ACA comes up. It is horrible, it doesn't cover people, it is too expensive, it is too late to repeal now, ...


Bullshit. I have repeatedly stated what I believe to be the first steps. I'm not an expert and have no idea all the needs to be taken into account to fully repeal ObamaCare. But, I do know it is a disaster that is wholly unsustainable and has not even had the worst parts kick in yet. So, I know something has to be done.

The few steps I would take, which I have stated at least a dozen times now in various threads on this topic, are as follows (in no particular order):

1. Expand Medicaid to cover low income individuals just above the poverty level.
2. Continue to allow children to remain on parents' plan, but increase age to 30.
3. Break down state barriers on insurance pools.
4. Neuter insurance companies, rather than further empowering them.

Those are just a few over views. This article explains in more detail the steps required to begin to fix this mess: https://www.nationalaffairs.com/...to-replace-obamacare


It is possible I have confused you with another, But I would have sworn you have avoided it in the past. My apologies. You seem to be at odds with the Republican plans.

The ACA did nothing to control costs. In fact, it was explicitly designed to kick that can down the road. I actually was hoping it would be ruled unconstitutional so we could try again.

This topic comes up over and over, from that link:
For market forces to work, consumers must be cost-conscious. Those who decide to consume goods or services must face tradeoffs that require them to prioritize the various uses of their money. In the health sector, there is virtually no cost consciousness on the part of consumers: The vast majority of Americans get their insurance through their employers or through Medicare or Medicaid. In each case, as noted above, the federal subsidy grows as the cost of insurance grows, thereby undermining the incentive to keep costs low. When an employer decides to provide a more generous health-benefit plan to his employees, the U.S. Treasury pays for a good portion of the added costs, because health insurance is a tax-free fringe benefit for workers. When a doctor orders more tests or procedures of dubious clinical value for a patient enrolled in Medicare, it is mainly taxpayers who pick up the tab. And when states pile more people into Medicaid, it is again taxpayers — federal and state — who shoulder the cost. With this kind of subsidy structure, it is not at all surprising that cost escalation throughout the health system has been rapid.


Are consumers really in position to make market choices? Do we know enough about whether or not a test is needed to make a choice? I had pneumonia a few years back that was missed on the original chest x-ray but found when they did a CT (? not positive) looking for kidney stones. When it cleared the doctor wanted to do another scan instead of an x-ray (or a really deep breath). I think in that kind of case most people have to just go with what the doctor wanted because they don't know enough o question it.


And we can't really shop for doctors very effectively with the structure we have now. The plans have networks that you have to stay within, and I have never known a doctor's office to give you a menu of services and prices to be able to shop.


Those are among the sort of things that push me towards a single payer system. I don't think we can count on market forces to control costs.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: Political Cannabalism in California [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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j p o wrote:

Are consumers really in position to make market choices? Do we know enough about whether or not a test is needed to make a choice? I had pneumonia a few years back that was missed on the original chest x-ray but found when they did a CT (? not positive) looking for kidney stones. When it cleared the doctor wanted to do another scan instead of an x-ray (or a really deep breath). I think in that kind of case most people have to just go with what the doctor wanted because they don't know enough o question it.

And we can't really shop for doctors very effectively with the structure we have now. The plans have networks that you have to stay within, and I have never known a doctor's office to give you a menu of services and prices to be able to shop.

Those are among the sort of things that push me towards a single payer system. I don't think we can count on market forces to control costs.

I am at odds with the GOP plan on a number of issues.

These are all good questions. I don't know the answers. I tend to take a simplistic approach to medical costs, based on what I see in dental, vision, and pet care. We messed up with medical insurance. We went from catastrophic coverage to expecting it to pay for our heartburn and allergy medication. It doesn't make sense. Veterinary care is relatively affordable in large part b/c we don't have (1) malpractice suits and (2) insurance coverage. Dental and vision typically is more affordable b/c there are significantly more out-of-pocket costs. We over-empowered health insurance companies and the health insurance system itself. The time, effort, and expense expended by medical clients simply in dealing with health insurance companies is staggering. Eliminate them. Provide catastrophic coverage plans. Place limits on medical malpractice claims. Costs would drop dramatically.

How do we do that? I dunno. If I did, I would be a very wealthy man. But, I don't think the "smart" people are focused in the right area(s).

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Political Cannabalism in California [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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Who knew health care could be this complicated?

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Political Cannabalism in California [RangerGress] [ In reply to ]
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The bureacracy gets bigger and bigger, satisfied customers get fewer and fewer, everything gets expensive and inefficient because everything the free market does really well....it's allowed to do less and less with each passing year.

I am Canadian and would love to see far less government involved in our healthcare but the problem with your argument is that the U.S spends more on healthcare than any country in the world, by a sizeable margin. I don't think a Universal Health care system in the U.S is necessarily the answer but your solution certainly isn't working very well. I happen to think it is more a problem with lifestyle but that's another discussion.

You also talk about how poor government is at running things, and how the free market is more effective but recent history has shown the free market also has problems (ie. banking, mortgage financing). Also, if I ask most Americans if they are satisfied with their military the overwhelming response is yes and most people have no problem increasing defense spending but that is a government department.

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Re: Political Cannabalism in California [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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cerveloguy wrote:
davec wrote:
Fake news.

The democrats are the party of inclusion, tolerance and love. Just ask them.

At least they're not talking about cutting off 32 million Americans from healthcare under the Pubs replacement Obamacare plan. WTF, that's the entire population of Canada and our 32 million are all insured.

You do realize that a large percentage of those "cut off" from healthcare would be those who chose to no longer carry Insurance because the individual and corporate mandate is gone? Those who choose to not pay thousands of dollars a year in insurance only to have a 5 or $6,000 deductible?

I miss YaHey
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Re: Political Cannabalism in California [justgeorge] [ In reply to ]
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justgeorge wrote:

You do realize that a large percentage of those "cut off" from healthcare would be those who chose to no longer carry Insurance because the individual and corporate mandate is gone? Those who choose to not pay thousands of dollars a year in insurance only to have a 5 or $6,000 deductible?

It's tough to decipher that. The CBO estimated that the bulk of loss of insurance would be those kicked off Medicaid due to Medicaid funding cuts. Eyeballing the CBO pdf file, it looks that's at least 60% of the total losses. The remainder it's difficult to say whether it's because of the cuts in premium subsidy or the removal of the penalty. The CBO doesn't specify as far as I can tell (though I didn't read the whole thing in detail).

For some people paying straight out-of-pocket can make sense. For people who are healthy and relatively wealthy. I've considered it.

But for poor people, I'm not sure it's that great because the cost of their care ends up getting backdoor-subsidized anyway. E.g. if they have a massive health care problem, emergency care is not refused. The hospital ends up increasing its rates to all other users to account for the requirement, and the poor person ends up going into debt, maybe forever.

I'd argue an up-front subsidy makes more sense than a backdoor subsidy.
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