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Re: Pros racing as age groupers [fitzkickjr] [ In reply to ]
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fitzkickjr wrote:
I wouldn't be happy to be knocked off the podium by a team that had a pro.

Ah come on now, what are you going to do; get a custom cabinet for the 99 cent medal that they give you. It's a relay for crissake!

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''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! 😂 '' Murphy's Law
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Re: Pros racing as age groupers [fitzkickjr] [ In reply to ]
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 Angela Naeth did the Tupper Lake Aqua/bike this past weekend. It was one of those "who the heck is that" situations when I saw her crush all the men and women in her wave in both the swim and then bike. A quick check of results provided the " no wonder" answer. For a pro not known for her stellar swim she looked pretty darn good compared to the mere mortals doing the aqua bike.

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
Last edited by: sciguy: Mar 28, 19 4:23
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Re: Pros racing as age groupers [fitzkickjr] [ In reply to ]
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I believe this just happened at Ultra Man

Matt Black
Boulder, CO
Undercover Fitness Extremist & Incognito Clothing Aficionado
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Re: Pros racing as age groupers [Mike Alexander] [ In reply to ]
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Crazy

Matt Black
Boulder, CO
Undercover Fitness Extremist & Incognito Clothing Aficionado
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Re: Pros racing as age groupers [TriMattBlack] [ In reply to ]
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Pretty sure ultraman is just an open race, not an AG race? He won overall, not the 40-44 age group. In fact I see no age group results at all for that race.

When pros retire, personally I love the opportunity to line up with them, I don't moan about being a step further down the results because someone faster than me was in the race.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Re: Pros racing as age groupers [fitzkickjr] [ In reply to ]
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fitzkickjr wrote:
What are the rules regarding professionals racing as age groupers in Ironman races? Can a professional race as an age grouper or be on a relay with other age groupers?
Isn't a pro essentially just and still is a really good age grouper that bought a pro license? Harden up princess...
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Re: Pros racing as age groupers [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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Javier Gomez did our local club sprint tri 2 weeks ago. He unsurprisingly won....

And it was fantastic. The person that came second actually deliberately swapped to race in the 'open' category and not U19 to be able to compete with him.

Sure he took the $200 prize money, but no-one was suggesting that he shouldn't. Sharing a bike rack with someone like that was great.*

*although tempting to add a bike lock to reduce his swim leg lead.....
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Re: Pros racing as age groupers [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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Shambolic wrote:
fitzkickjr wrote:
What are the rules regarding professionals racing as age groupers in Ironman races? Can a professional race as an age grouper or be on a relay with other age groupers?

Isn't a pro essentially just and still is a really good age grouper that bought a pro license? Harden up princess...

A pro is an amateur who met performance requirements to compete at the pointy end for cash. They often hold regular jobs and train (and sacrifice a lot), just like you & I. Sometimes they are full time training--sometimes they come from family money and have a huge advantage to not have to work. Some come from poor or middle class families. At the end of the day, they likely busted their butt to get fast enough (unless they had *extra help*) to point that most of us mere mortals could not. We are handed a set of life circumstances, the hand we are dealt. How you play that hand with it is your choice.

It's racing, not life or death. Move on--next thread.
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Re: Pros racing as age groupers [fitzkickjr] [ In reply to ]
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fitzkickjr wrote:
I'm just asking if there are rules about it. I've never noticed it done before and thought it strange.
Why would it be odd?

The difference between a pro and an amateur is that one is eligible to get paid.
I'm not aware of any magical ability that's bestowed to athletes when they turn pro.

Sure, you may be awarded a win if you come first in your AG category despite a bunch of pros in the same age range beating you. That doesn't mean you are the fastest person of your age. It just means the rules of the race consider them a special case. I think it's a slightly odd distinction but I get it. However, if an athlete is eligible for being paid for a race, I see no reason why that distinction should be maintained. They are not professional in that race.
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Re: Pros racing as age groupers [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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Shambolic wrote:
fitzkickjr wrote:
What are the rules regarding professionals racing as age groupers in Ironman races? Can a professional race as an age grouper or be on a relay with other age groupers?

Isn't a pro essentially just and still is a really good age grouper that bought a pro license? Harden up princess...

Jesus Christ. You people are arguing with someone that hasn't logged on in a year and a half on a thread that was bumped up by an ax grinder that just joined last week.
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Re: Pros racing as age groupers [T-wrecks] [ In reply to ]
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T-wrecks wrote:
Shambolic wrote:
fitzkickjr wrote:
What are the rules regarding professionals racing as age groupers in Ironman races? Can a professional race as an age grouper or be on a relay with other age groupers?

Isn't a pro essentially just and still is a really good age grouper that bought a pro license? Harden up princess...

Jesus Christ. You people are arguing with someone that hasn't logged on in a year and a half on a thread that was bumped up by an ax grinder that just joined last week.

Well this thread brings up good case for CAT system in tri.
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Re: Pros racing as age groupers [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:

Well this thread brings up good case for CAT system in tri.

Dear god, please don't go there again so soon after the last one. Unless, by cats in triathlon, you mean


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Re: Pros racing as age groupers [T-wrecks] [ In reply to ]
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Slippery slope there, man. Too soon we will see those terrifying hairless cats, since they are probably more aero.

Alex Arman

Strava
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Re: Pros racing as age groupers [Rocky M] [ In reply to ]
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Rocky M wrote:
Shambolic wrote:
fitzkickjr wrote:
What are the rules regarding professionals racing as age groupers in Ironman races? Can a professional race as an age grouper or be on a relay with other age groupers?

Isn't a pro essentially just and still is a really good age grouper that bought a pro license? Harden up princess...


A pro is an amateur who met performance requirements to compete at the pointy end for cash. They often hold regular jobs and train (and sacrifice a lot), just like you & I. Sometimes they are full time training--sometimes they come from family money and have a huge advantage to not have to work. Some come from poor or middle class families. At the end of the day, they likely busted their butt to get fast enough (unless they had *extra help*) to point that most of us mere mortals could not. We are handed a set of life circumstances, the hand we are dealt. How you play that hand with it is your choice.

It's racing, not life or death. Move on--next thread.

Via the USAT sanction, the definition of a pro/elite athlete in the USA is an athlete that holds a USAT Elite license. Amateurs are allowed to compete in races for cash when the prize purse is less than $5000. For races over $5000 amateurs are NOT allowed to compete. In those cases it is a PRO race then special rules are followed for the pro race. There is no such thing as an age-group only race. Pro are allowed to compete in age-group only races, they just aren't allowed to receive age-group awards or slots to world championship races - they are allowed to win the overall title, they just can't accept say an award for 1st place M40-44.


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Re: Pros racing as age groupers [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Another case against age groups versus categories.........just sayin.

Imagine this argument down at the local golf course for the tournament. Well, Webb Simpson has shown back up at his childhood golf club to play in the 18-34 age group.

But, that wouldn't be how it works there. He'd play in the top flight, or category, and still win.

I wish people would start to see how silly it is from other game and sport's perspective.

As for relays though, I wouldn't care. I think relays should just be "open" and whatever goes. Maybe have two relay categories by skill or something.
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Re: Pros racing as age groupers [fitzkickjr] [ In reply to ]
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I believe Ironman creates this because of Thomas Gerlachs involvement in a non-pro Ironman race a few years ago. But this is what Ironman has laid out for their guidelines now.

http://eu.ironman.com/...y.aspx#axzz4dm7mHk90
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Re: Pros racing as age groupers [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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In general you know what I meant. Someone who tries to earn a living by competing for cash or racing as a career/financial gain. Although monetary limits (if you're going by USAT definition) quoted are relevant from a nitpicky standpoint; there's always one out there.
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Re: Pros racing as age groupers [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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No that AG is reserved for me. Haha😜
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Re: Pros racing as age groupers [907Tri] [ In reply to ]
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907Tri wrote:
I believe Ironman creates this because of Thomas Gerlachs involvement in a non-pro Ironman race a few years ago. But this is what Ironman has laid out for their guidelines now.

http://eu.ironman.com/...y.aspx#axzz4dm7mHk90

Yep, I joke around that it was created out of that Ironman Wisconsin event. You read it and it outlays exactly the scenario at Ironman Wisconsin that particular year. Just for the record again, this had been going on for many years, it is just usually results in a scenario where the pro doesn't actually finish first so it was the first time they had to deal with it in I believe a full Ironman and they weren't prepared. There were some pros who did shorter events, but Ironman is a long day for a pro just to enter. It really is a waste of training/recovery. In addition, it didn't help that Mike Reilly fell off the podium speaker stand that day and had to leave nor did it help that I went thru the allocated sponsor slots for a late entry at 3:45pm Friday. I think had I signed up for the race say a year before it would have been different approach in the handling.

Fwiw, I wanted to reiterate, I lived a block from the start/finish, went to school at UW, grew up in Madison, and the course runs by every house I lived on during campus and the Lakeshore path is something I have trained on for better than 20 years. Coming in injured I treated it as just another training day. I really didn't even know if I would be able to even finish given I hadn't trained for about 4 weeks post IMMT, but I guess I got a little motivated when some hecklers on the circle ramp were heckling me about being out of the swim in 10th place. Oh man, I took the swim out hard but I had a wetsuit on when it would be non-wetsuit water temp for pros. Totally forgot how hot I get in those scenarios. I got absolutely roasted by core temp trying to keep up with the lead pack until I realized it was just going to end my day very quickly unless I backed off.


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Re: Pros racing as age groupers [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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hey I might be revising history but wasn't your victory the match that lit the fuse that ignited the powder keg known as Kylie?
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Re: Pros racing as age groupers [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
Another case against age groups versus categories.........just sayin.

Imagine this argument down at the local golf course for the tournament. Well, Webb Simpson has shown back up at his childhood golf club to play in the 18-34 age group.

But, that wouldn't be how it works there. He'd play in the top flight, or category, and still win.

I wish people would start to see how silly it is from other game and sport's perspective.

As for relays though, I wouldn't care. I think relays should just be "open" and whatever goes. Maybe have two relay categories by skill or something.


Definitely something that people are really polarized on. Some people value being able to compete with people who are "ranked" higher in something. I know that is me. I always wanted to pushed, challenged, etc. Others not so much, they think you shouldn't be able to compete for some reason - I don't really get that argument personally. If pros were banned, well that would be completely different argument but it isn't like I am taking their Kona spot, I wasn't competing in 18-34 per se. I was still categorized as a professional in a separate category.

Regardless, and I have said this before, but I learned so much about pro's, our marketability etc that day. That day was the day I had the epiphany that it wasn't about being a pro... it really was about the first person to be across the finish line. Being local there were many people who were very familiar with me, but there were 100x of spectators who were supporting others, or just general Madison folk who had no idea. No idea I was a professional, no idea that there was no prize purse unlike prior years. They just saw it as the first person to cross the line.

Although there was a time before where Ironman operated the same way, you could easily make an argument on how much Ironman devalues the pros when they have 1 pro race for either male/female, 1 amateur. In that race the community sees the pro and the amateur who "won" as equal. You could say the amateur is elevated to the status of the professional, but 99.99% of the people don't know there is anything different between the male/female winner in regards to their professional / amateur status. Even the people who do sponsorship don't really care, a win is a win to them.

Golf is a very different sport as I don't think you have sponsors supporting Webb Simpson to the tune of a PGA event at his local backyard event. At the end of the day, the landscape totally changed in triathlon. Given it's sort of unique status as a participant sport and with the coming of age of social media the pro in general has been sort of devalued along the way. Triathlon is an extremely low-reward sport financially, frankly, I am surprised we don't see more pros doing non-pro prize races to raise their profile. But then I know why, because 95% of all pros have another job and they don't really care except for getting their racing fix and they want to compete against the best or maybe for some because they want to race more cheaply. The pro is just a label. It allows one to compete in events with a prize-purse greater than $5,000 and with a special set of rules, with a special set of oversight (ie officials, doping, etc).

For me, till this day, I have never heard from Edward Schmitt (3rd place finisher, 2nd amatuer). There was no offer to return the first overall male banner. That banner is technically mine but seeing is I don't keep trophies it isn't a big deal, however I do have a few (emphasis few) fans that collect stuff and it would have be nice to send it to one of them. And if it wasn't mine, it was certainly Rudy Kashar's who actually finished second and was the first amateur. The Wisconsin State Journal wrote a nice story that unfortunately read like I "bandited" the race. Only to try to correct it the following day but only to get the story even more wrong IMHO. I didn't get an apology for Ironman. There was nothing (to my knowledge) that wasn't kosher on my part and Ironman got an extra $800 that they wouldn't have had if I hadn't raced. In typical fashion, the only positive thing to come from this for me was it brought some attention to the issue and got Ironman to more formally come up with a procedure on how to handle it going forward which was linked above. I received a considerable amount of flak from a few age-groupers over the issue too which is never healthy in terms of stress recovery etc.

At the end of the day humans are social creatures and I love to participate, talk, laugh, share experiences etc. But traveling to pro events is costly, time-consuming, and hardly ever financially rewarding. When I can sleep in my own bed, walk a block to the race start and compete at a shared goal with 2,500 hundred other motivated people I'll take it. It would be nice if we had more races that pros were willing to do without prize purses but it just doesn't happen. Fwiw, the two others years it hasn't been a male pro event I have volunteered to help athletes and being a competitive person I was, I always tried to be the best volunteer possible and tried to jog with every athlete a few steps so I could make a better and more seamless hand-off at the aid station.


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Last edited by: Thomas Gerlach: Apr 10, 19 12:29
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Re: Pros racing as age groupers [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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ajthomas wrote:
hey I might be revising history but wasn't your victory the match that lit the fuse that ignited the powder keg known as Kylie?

Who knows - too long ago. I did do a bit on the TRS podcast which may have fired up Kylie and some others. I will say again for the aero shootout that I stayed with Kylie in his hotel room. It is interesting walking into a room at 1am in the morning and meeting someone who ripped you to shreads on the internet. I chaulk that up to thick skin from ST. ST definitely knows how to build some callouses.


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Re: Pros racing as age groupers [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
There is no rule against it. They can race an AG only Ironman branded race but will not be listed in an AG specific results (ie M30-34). They will be listed as PRO. However, they will show up in the overall results.

The only rule is that they can't take world championship slots.

Did not know that, SteveJ - thank you.

Just curious - is that sanction agnostic (USAT, TriathlonCanada, TriNZ, etc), or only applied to USAT/US pros?

IG: NCGregory8778
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Re: Pros racing as age groupers [Savage8778] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Pros racing as age groupers [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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Very interesting - thanks for sharing that, Steve.

IG: NCGregory8778
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