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Re: Kona Validations: Frodo-Kienle-Lange [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Tri-Banter wrote:
What is the point of validation?
---

On paper, it's to force recent champions to put IM stress on their body. Everyone else has to do an IM in order to compete in Kona, therefore, the former champs do too. Plus, it gives the WTC some marketing hype. Come see _______ (Jan, Sebi, Rinny, etc.) race! Where the WTC fails miserably is that they do nothing to actually market these events and the pros do a horrible job at making their race schedules committed.

Honest question, is there a performance standard? If Frodo decided to ride a beach cruiser and hang out with the masses, finishing in 12 or 13 hours, would that still count as validation?

if there isnt a performance standard, I guess I don't see the point.

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Re: Kona Validations: Frodo-Kienle-Lange [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Seems there may be, as determined by WTC

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Former Pro Athlete Ironman® World Champions using the Five Year Exemption to enter into the 2017 Kona Race will be required to validate their entry by racing competitively (as determined by IRONMAN in IRONMAN’s sole discretion) and finishing at least one (1) Ironman®-Branded Kona-Qualifying Race (excluding the 2016 Ironman World Championship) during the 2017 Qualifying Year
Originally from: http://www.ironman.com/...g.aspx#ixzz4lD7e0MuL

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
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Re: Kona Validations: Frodo-Kienle-Lange [hadukla] [ In reply to ]
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seems that Sutto agrees that the validation process is ridiculous. They aren't going to show up out of shape, and even if they do, so what? They'll just be racing back with the age groupers.



trisutto.com/kona-validation-debate/




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Re: Kona Validations: Frodo-Kienle-Lange [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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23 Patrick Lange GER 07:53:32 08:14:49 00:45:58 04:27:44 05:18:42 02:34:50 n/a (1 IM Pro race)

But apparently Thorsten has him running a 2:34 ;)
Last edited by: CgyTriGuy: Jun 27, 17 7:46
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Re: Kona Validations: Frodo-Kienle-Lange [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
Tri-Banter wrote:
What is the point of validation?
---

On paper, it's to force recent champions to put IM stress on their body. Everyone else has to do an IM in order to compete in Kona, therefore, the former champs do too. Plus, it gives the WTC some marketing hype. Come see _______ (Jan, Sebi, Rinny, etc.) race! Where the WTC fails miserably is that they do nothing to actually market these events and the pros do a horrible job at making their race schedules committed.


Honest question, is there a performance standard? If Frodo decided to ride a beach cruiser and hang out with the masses, finishing in 12 or 13 hours, would that still count as validation?

if there isnt a performance standard, I guess I don't see the point.

Before it used to not matter, but in part Rinny's famous cruise validation at IM FL a few years ago eating potato chips and relaxing made IM change the rules and now they have to be "competitive", which is still blurry but gives IM a way of saying "you didn't validate at such and such race" if the athlete in question was obviously not taking the race seriously.
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Re: Kona Validations: Frodo-Kienle-Lange [rodchaves31] [ In reply to ]
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OK, but still, the validation requirement seems ridiculous.

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Re: Kona Validations: Frodo-Kienle-Lange [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Also I wonder if Frodo well redline and try to take his own Roth record lower at Klagenfurt, or as a minimum take away Don's Brazil "moto enhanced" IM series best time

What's your beef with Don? Didn't you say something about a 70.3 being moto assisted earlier in the year? I was in Brazil for the IM and was out on the bike course for a fair bit and I did not once see his being pulled by a moto.
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Re: Kona Validations: Frodo-Kienle-Lange [CgyTriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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CgyTriGuy wrote:
23 Patrick Lange GER 07:53:32 08:14:49 00:45:58 04:27:44 05:18:42 02:34:50 n/a (1 IM Pro race)

But apparently Thorsten has him running a 2:34 ;)

What race are those results from???


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Kona Validations: Frodo-Kienle-Lange [rodchaves31] [ In reply to ]
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rodchaves31 wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
Tri-Banter wrote:
What is the point of validation?
---

On paper, it's to force recent champions to put IM stress on their body. Everyone else has to do an IM in order to compete in Kona, therefore, the former champs do too. Plus, it gives the WTC some marketing hype. Come see _______ (Jan, Sebi, Rinny, etc.) race! Where the WTC fails miserably is that they do nothing to actually market these events and the pros do a horrible job at making their race schedules committed.


Honest question, is there a performance standard? If Frodo decided to ride a beach cruiser and hang out with the masses, finishing in 12 or 13 hours, would that still count as validation?

if there isnt a performance standard, I guess I don't see the point.

Before it used to not matter, but in part Rinny's famous cruise validation at IM FL a few years ago eating potato chips and relaxing made IM change the rules and now they have to be "competitive", which is still blurry but gives IM a way of saying "you didn't validate at such and such race" if the athlete in question was obviously not taking the race seriously.
Didn't Pete Jacobs and Messick get into a spat when Jacobs 'validated' his spot one year? Pretty sure they changed the rule the following year.

AJ

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IM WC Hawaii 2024
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Re: Kona Validations: Frodo-Kienle-Lange [Tri Bread] [ In reply to ]
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Tri Bread wrote:
rodchaves31 wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
Tri-Banter wrote:
What is the point of validation?
---

On paper, it's to force recent champions to put IM stress on their body. Everyone else has to do an IM in order to compete in Kona, therefore, the former champs do too. Plus, it gives the WTC some marketing hype. Come see _______ (Jan, Sebi, Rinny, etc.) race! Where the WTC fails miserably is that they do nothing to actually market these events and the pros do a horrible job at making their race schedules committed.


Honest question, is there a performance standard? If Frodo decided to ride a beach cruiser and hang out with the masses, finishing in 12 or 13 hours, would that still count as validation?

if there isnt a performance standard, I guess I don't see the point.

Before it used to not matter, but in part Rinny's famous cruise validation at IM FL a few years ago eating potato chips and relaxing made IM change the rules and now they have to be "competitive", which is still blurry but gives IM a way of saying "you didn't validate at such and such race" if the athlete in question was obviously not taking the race seriously.
Didn't Pete Jacobs and Messick get into a spat when Jacobs 'validated' his spot one year? Pretty sure they changed the rule the following year.

It was in 2013 when jacobs did Roth (did not go well) and validated in Zurich basically walking. Daniela Ryf did the same double in 2016 but ripped the race in Zurich right after Roth. She was also back on form in Kona after being flat at Mooloolaba. So she was not able to defend her 70.3 world's plus Kona double due to the need to validate at a WTC Ironman even though she was clearly in IM form after Roth. But major league baseball will not let you into the playoffs for the world series if you the Japanese league champion.
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Re: Kona Validations: Frodo-Kienle-Lange [rodchaves31] [ In reply to ]
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Must have been 2013? I was a first-shift finish line catcher that year, and remember her coming across barely sweating and giving a big "stamp" signal.
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Re: Kona Validations: Frodo-Kienle-Lange [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Tri Bread wrote:
rodchaves31 wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
Tri-Banter wrote:
What is the point of validation?
---

On paper, it's to force recent champions to put IM stress on their body. Everyone else has to do an IM in order to compete in Kona, therefore, the former champs do too. Plus, it gives the WTC some marketing hype. Come see _______ (Jan, Sebi, Rinny, etc.) race! Where the WTC fails miserably is that they do nothing to actually market these events and the pros do a horrible job at making their race schedules committed.


Honest question, is there a performance standard? If Frodo decided to ride a beach cruiser and hang out with the masses, finishing in 12 or 13 hours, would that still count as validation?

if there isnt a performance standard, I guess I don't see the point.

Before it used to not matter, but in part Rinny's famous cruise validation at IM FL a few years ago eating potato chips and relaxing made IM change the rules and now they have to be "competitive", which is still blurry but gives IM a way of saying "you didn't validate at such and such race" if the athlete in question was obviously not taking the race seriously.
Didn't Pete Jacobs and Messick get into a spat when Jacobs 'validated' his spot one year? Pretty sure they changed the rule the following year.

It was in 2013 when jacobs did Roth (did not go well) and validated in Zurich basically walking. Daniela Ryf did the same double in 2016 but ripped the race in Zurich right after Roth. She was also back on form in Kona after being flat at Mooloolaba. So she was not able to defend her 70.3 world's plus Kona double due to the need to validate at a WTC Ironman even though she was clearly in IM form after Roth. But major league baseball will not let you into the playoffs for the world series if you the Japanese league champion.

I had forgotten about Pete but yes, same year than Rinny validaded barely sweating and Messick decided enough is enough. To a degree I agree with both sides but if IM hadn't changed validation standards maybe there would be a lot of joking around by pro's validating without competing while everybody else is digging super deep
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Re: Kona Validations: Frodo-Kienle-Lange [rodchaves31] [ In reply to ]
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Ryf actually went to Frankfurt and pulled out due to hypothermia (which only fueled Sutton's beef with the validation system). Then went on to do Roth and people were wondering if she was even going to validate. Sutton's point was that she should have been allowed to validate in Roth, but IM said screw that because, as you said, "major league baseball will not let you into the playoffs for the world series if you the Japanese league champion." Then she went beast mode in Zurich, and on to Kona to smoke the whole field. She's definitely special but not as special as Chrissie in my book.


P.S. Ryf breaks Chrissie's record in Roth this year. You can book it.
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Re: Kona Validations: Frodo-Kienle-Lange [rodchaves31] [ In reply to ]
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Ryf has been injured quite a bit and according to Sutto she may not be in the form to set any records. Also the course has changed this year and it will likely lead to different times as it's a bit tougher run if I'm reading things correctly.

http://trisutto.com/challenge-roth-record/





------
"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"
Last edited by: PushThePace: Jun 28, 17 8:00
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Re: Kona Validations: Frodo-Kienle-Lange [PushThePace] [ In reply to ]
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Well, the run course will be 42k now.
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Re: Kona Validations: Frodo-Kienle-Lange [Archibald] [ In reply to ]
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Frodo is now into Kona with his 7:57 at IM Austria. Funny how 7:57 does not even get much air time on ST anymore! Looks like with a 2:46 run he did not go nuts on that leg either, and did enough for a sub 8, but not his fastest speed. Maybe saving the full throttle for Kona?
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Re: Kona Validations: Frodo-Kienle-Lange [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Frodo is now into Kona with his 7:57 at IM Austria. Funny how 7:57 does not even get much air time on ST anymore! Looks like with a 2:46 run he did not go nuts on that leg either, and did enough for a sub 8, but not his fastest speed. Maybe saving the full throttle for Kona?

He did say that Luca brought home a virus and he went a couple weeks without training in the last month, then had a couple of weeks panic training to get ready. He's really become a genius at the solo game - swim everyone off your feet, ride your race and run solid tempo. All the fast races seem to not be races at all really - just good TT efforts. I will try and remember that with IMC coming up!

It will be interesting to see how deep Sebi has to go this weekend. I still have suspicions that Lange will not be able to race to his level and will just get that validation done, but Bocherer seems to like to push Sebi and last year - while they didn't run together, I think they were never more than a couple minutes apart. The genius of Frodeno's race is an extra week of recovery from a race he didn't seem to have to go that deep for. Oh...to be able to even say not that deep for 7:57!

Brent

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Kona Validations: Frodo-Kienle-Lange [dfru] [ In reply to ]
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dfru wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
Frodo is now into Kona with his 7:57 at IM Austria. Funny how 7:57 does not even get much air time on ST anymore! Looks like with a 2:46 run he did not go nuts on that leg either, and did enough for a sub 8, but not his fastest speed. Maybe saving the full throttle for Kona?


He did say that Luca brought home a virus and he went a couple weeks without training in the last month, then had a couple of weeks panic training to get ready. He's really become a genius at the solo game - swim everyone off your feet, ride your race and run solid tempo. All the fast races seem to not be races at all really - just good TT efforts. I will try and remember that with IMC coming up!

It will be interesting to see how deep Sebi has to go this weekend. I still have suspicions that Lange will not be able to race to his level and will just get that validation done, but Bocherer seems to like to push Sebi and last year - while they didn't run together, I think they were never more than a couple minutes apart. The genius of Frodeno's race is an extra week of recovery from a race he didn't seem to have to go that deep for. Oh...to be able to even say not that deep for 7:57!

Brent

It seems like the drag race that Jan had with Sebi at Kona seemed to take a lot out of him mentally just based on the various interviews and what he has said to others. It seems like mentally he is saving himself for that one blow away performance at Kona this year. I bet if the day is good, he can go sub 8 at Kona. That's pretty well all that remains for him to do in this sport. Yes, I also agree about his "not go too deep". You have to think that he chose to not get sucked into a drag race at Franfurt. Sebi on the other hand seems to thrive off that. He is more "racer" than "TTer" in that the presence of others pushes him to another level. I would be curious to see Sebi in a group vs solo training. He seems to be the type that would push himself a bit harder with others, but that's just a guess from a fan.
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Re: Kona Validations: Frodo-Kienle-Lange [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
dfru wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
Frodo is now into Kona with his 7:57 at IM Austria. Funny how 7:57 does not even get much air time on ST anymore! Looks like with a 2:46 run he did not go nuts on that leg either, and did enough for a sub 8, but not his fastest speed. Maybe saving the full throttle for Kona?


He did say that Luca brought home a virus and he went a couple weeks without training in the last month, then had a couple of weeks panic training to get ready. He's really become a genius at the solo game - swim everyone off your feet, ride your race and run solid tempo. All the fast races seem to not be races at all really - just good TT efforts. I will try and remember that with IMC coming up!

It will be interesting to see how deep Sebi has to go this weekend. I still have suspicions that Lange will not be able to race to his level and will just get that validation done, but Bocherer seems to like to push Sebi and last year - while they didn't run together, I think they were never more than a couple minutes apart. The genius of Frodeno's race is an extra week of recovery from a race he didn't seem to have to go that deep for. Oh...to be able to even say not that deep for 7:57!

Brent


It seems like the drag race that Jan had with Sebi at Kona seemed to take a lot out of him mentally just based on the various interviews and what he has said to others. It seems like mentally he is saving himself for that one blow away performance at Kona this year. I bet if the day is good, he can go sub 8 at Kona. That's pretty well all that remains for him to do in this sport. Yes, I also agree about his "not go too deep". You have to think that he chose to not get sucked into a drag race at Franfurt. Sebi on the other hand seems to thrive off that. He is more "racer" than "TTer" in that the presence of others pushes him to another level. I would be curious to see Sebi in a group vs solo training. He seems to be the type that would push himself a bit harder with others, but that's just a guess from a fan.

I thought, orginally, that he might just want the IM branded world record, especially after Lionel got it in Arizona, but his son's ability to bring illness and horror home probably kept him from even pursuing that. I agree about Kona - I think he would love to really nail it and go sub 8. I've been trying to figure out how one could really do a TT type effort and I can really only come up with out first group in the swim, pace with an extremely motivated group up to Hawi and then TT away at 120-30k assuming you can. Not burning too many matches early and riding the last third like he did in Austria. Harder for the Kienle/Sanders group...BUT if they are strong enough and ride similar to The Championship, could get similar effect. This does leave open a slower marathon perhaps - so Lange getting dragged along within 5 minutes and then dropping 2:40 would also put him in the 8 hour mix in a more traditional sense. But even Crowie basically raced this way (excluding Lieto off the front) when he set the record - slightly slower marathon than capable of.

Brent

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Kona Validations: Frodo-Kienle-Lange [dfru] [ In reply to ]
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dfru wrote:
his son's ability to bring illness and horror home

Horror? ...or just some sleepless nights?

29 years and counting
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Re: Kona Validations: Frodo-Kienle-Lange [Jorgan] [ In reply to ]
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Jorgan wrote:
dfru wrote:
his son's ability to bring illness and horror home


Horror? ...or just some sleepless nights?

I had a flashback to the first time I coached in middle school before kids. By day 3 I was sicker than I had ever been, and it lasted 3 weeks. Just crazy when you are first dumped into the cesspool of germs that kids bring into your "perfect" world!

Horror might have been a little excessive :)

Brent

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Kona Validations: Frodo-Kienle-Lange [dfru] [ In reply to ]
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I know what you mean though, our youngest is 3 and in Kindergarten. Germ city, but not as bad as baby/toddler room was!

29 years and counting
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Re: Kona Validations: Frodo-Kienle-Lange [dfru] [ In reply to ]
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Lange having been injured might be a blessing in disguise. He cannot rip himself to pieces in training for and racing Frankfurt. Then he should be relatively fresh for a strong Kona build.

This guy must be motivated tl the gills what can be dangerous. It's not easy to replicate last years performance when everyone is expecting it from you. I wish him all the best.

Frodos virus could also prove useful. A bit of a mid season break is never a bad thing when you want go on to smash it in Kona (and in the training therefor). But anyway, I gues Frodo is now a very smart guy burning his matches wisely.

10k - 30:48 / half - 1:06:40
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Re: Kona Validations: Frodo-Kienle-Lange [ToBeasy] [ In reply to ]
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ToBeasy wrote:
Lange having been injured might be a blessing in disguise. He cannot rip himself to pieces in training for and racing Frankfurt. Then he should be relatively fresh for a strong Kona build.

This guy must be motivated tl the gills what can be dangerous. It's not easy to replicate last years performance when everyone is expecting it from you. I wish him all the best.

Frodos virus could also prove useful. A bit of a mid season break is never a bad thing when you want go on to smash it in Kona (and in the training therefor). But anyway, I gues Frodo is now a very smart guy burning his matches wisely.

There is some congruency to Crowie in 2011 - being sick and getting thru Coeur d'Alene and then a good build to Kona. I really like the Lange story - the Germans are just so strong. Nobody talks about Bocherer, or Stein, and I almost forgot Frommhold. Amazing depth over there and they all love to race really really hard.

Anyways - should be another fun weekend - everyone else has a chance to make their own statement!

Brent

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Kona Validations: Frodo-Kienle-Lange [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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If I am not wrong, Kienle does a lot of his training in groups. He trained for a couple of weeks with Ben H. (and others) in AZ and he seems to have some training buddies when he is at home...
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