Hadn't looked in awhile. Ah the exchange rate is 25:1 and basic goods are priced in the local, but luxury goods are in the tourist one and shockingly wages are paid in the local one. Whatever it's still state sanctioned thievery.

You know how Cuba can get off the shit list? Guarantee basic rights like assembly speech press and freedom of movement.

Or they can discover a large oil deposit...

How would increased US/Cuba relations help the Cuban people?


Increase in tourism, increase in U.S business interests and investments in Cuba.


Wouldn't the government simply acquire any/all new-found wealth?


They would acquire the wealth and some would be passed on to the people in terms of education, healthcare, taxes etc. It would work the same as every other country in the world that benefits from global trade.

How does this economic overhaul work if there is no private property? Why would a US company invest if there are no property rights? Property rights (and to some extent limited liability) are the foundations of capitalism.

Ask the European companies that operate resorts there.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Yes, so, at 25:1, a mere tip of 1CUC actually has a relatively large impact on a Cuban citizen. They WANT to be tipped in CUC.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Oh did I miss where the fucking Cuban government doesn't own the property and benefit from the companies running it. I seem to remember that the hotel contracts with the government to provide employees and the government pays them. Want to bet they keep a good portion of that spread?

I am not arguing with what you said above. That is all true. You asked why a US company would invest if there are no property rights. Obviously, it is still lucrative for other companies to operate resorts there. I would imagine, if allowed, some US businesses would operate resorts there in the same way European ones do.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Honestly, I don't know. I don't think those living outside of tourist areas would see much, if any, benefit. I think the hope is that a growing middle or upper middle cuban class (the ones benefiting from increased tourism) would slowly bring about change from within.

The couple who's place we stayed at uses the money they make of their rental to hire a cleaner, they fixed up their dad's old 50's car and now charge tourists for rides in it, which brings them more money (and pays for the guy who fixed the car), etc. All of these services are cash and hush hush so it seems as though there is a huge black market for services there that directly help people.

I think the more information and money flowing in to Cuba that the government can't control, the less power the government has. Short of a military intervention, or continued sanctions, I'm not really sure what other options exist for Cuba.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

I think you are arguing about something you don't understand. Do you really think that people don't own private property in Cuba?

Its simplistic to think in absolutes - Cuba is communist, and far more to the left on the socialism scale than Sweden, but it certainly has private property. Cubans can own a house, a car, even run a small family business. The poor economy makes it difficult but its possible.

No country has absolute communist collectivization - even North Korea, which is absolutely totalitarian, has some property rights. Absolute collectivization was tried in the Soviet Union in the 30's, in China in the 50's and in Cambodia in the 70's. All 3 experiments ended horribly - with mass starvation and death. Since then no ruler has been foolish enough to flirt with it.

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Remember - It's important to be comfortable in your own skin... because it turns out society frowns on wearing other people's

You are 100% correct. But its sure hard to rationalize with windy. He has what he wants to believe and that's it.

I don't doubt it's lucrative but it also provides hard cash to the government which keeps them in power

I'm not speaking in absolute terms but the real, intellectual, and chattel property rights leaves a lot to be desired in Cuba much more so than other places. You need those rights for investment and a capitalist economy. Wholesale government confiscation aka nationalization without compensation is part for the course there.

How much money do you have invested in Cuba?

Overthrow how? What are you suggesting? Civil war? Revolution with lots of blood? Could you elaborate?

The first question, I guess big businesses can influence the government to create change.

The second, let me start by saying that I grew up in former Yugoslavia where we had a fairly soft version of communism. Cuba, it seems to me, is heading into that direction. At first, yes, the government will take most of the money. But not all. Some will go to the people. The middle class will grow (don't know how big it is now) and be more powerful. Strength in numbers, or something like that. The new generation of young Cubans are not all revolution etc. They see how the rest of the world lives, just like we did in Yu and want the same. I don't want to work for a months for something that some dickhead in West makes in an hour, we thought. The government can't sell the "worker's paradise" story forever. Regulation will be relaxed, more free enterprise, more money and, as the old guard dies off/retires, the new capitalist oriented people will come to power.
It was more or less the same in Yu. During communist heydays many people rented their homes to tourists for hard currency, under the table. Then some started renting the entire house. Then they built another house and rented that one. Then a "friend of a friend" who was somebody important in the government issued a "special" business permit. Then another one....I am not sure if I am answering your question well. At first, they will take a lot, then there will be more money, they will still take a chunk but more will remain for the people.

Interesting. Thank you for the insight.

As I mentioned earlier - I'm all for opening up relations with Cuba for a variety of reasons. I would hope that would also positively impact the population, but, I don't know anything about this, so it has been very informative to hear from people.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

It could be a peaceful revolution. My position is that until the present government is deposed and no longer able to siphon off capital and labor every foreign dollar just prolongs the oppression.

Interesting perspective. I pose this question(s): Had Yugoslavia been relatively homogenous and USSR not fallen do you think the economies would have reformed?

About Yugoslavia, yes, absolutely. Back in late eighties the rules for free enterprise have been very much relaxed. Even during communism, we could have private businesses but it was kind of keep it part time, don't show off your money and the government didn't bother you.
Lots of people who emigrated to the West during 50s, 60s 70s have come back and started something, mostly pubs, then small restaurants, dentists, tourism stuff, grocery shops, export-import etc. There were lots of truckers as the trucks could have been registered abroad so legally they weren't local.
Before all this I was thinking about moving at one point to the West, temporarily, to experience the life there. During late 80s, when the communists were weakening big time, I changed my mind, future was looking good, no need to move. Then the war broke out...
I don't know about USSR. The communist regimes in all communist countries were not the same, some were more open/liberal/westernized, some less. I really don't know how the economy in post USSR Russia developed/changed.

The biggest problem I see in Cuba is that it is an island. In Yu, we could drive/walk to Austria, Italy or Greece. Or fly just about anywhere, visa free. It was very easy to move in/out of the country, get in touch with westerners, learn about them, their system, government, watch foreign TV, tons of American movies and we had millions of Western tourists who could go wherever they wanted, we had foreign cars... Other then tourists, I think, Cuba is physically isolated so every change will be slower and, I really, really, REALLY hope, peaceful.