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Re: Uber Biker Tim Don crushing IM Brasil [Fazz] [ In reply to ]
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Fazz wrote:
Dan The Man wrote:
Fazz wrote:
Dan The Man wrote:
Does that not kind of prove the point that the heavier rider has it easier on a quick course like Kona? Lange from your stats is pushing 8% more w/kg and yet he rides a slower bike split to the heavier guys?


No it doesn't. Well actually sort of but I think Lange's example is skewed.
I suspect Lange broke aero more than the others, or lost more time slowing/speeding up from penalty tent etc.
He also doesn't look as aero as the others.

The point is that 325w for same w/kg doesn't trump 265w. And I'd argue the 325w has better position and aero attention.

If watts trumped w/kg then there would be a greater deficit here. And in fact the 265w was 1min quicker.


So many aero variables of did they sit up, is there head as tucked as it can be, etc that I think the data points to CDA being very important, and w/kg being important, and then watts having a factor on flat courses if same aero details and w/kg.



I don't think you can compare McCrystal to the pros, he will have ridden the majority of his time on his own pushing all the wind and that's a very different race dynamic in Kona. Hoffman and Lange would have been in trains for most/all of the 112 miles. You could compare these two pros as they are experiencing similar pack dynamics but with the caveat that how well they manage these trains will have a big impact on their statistic.

A better comparison would be two age groupers but unfortunately I doubt there are age groupers riding close to McCrystal speed!

I'd argue that those stats don't prove anything, I'm not convinced either way.


True and fair point.
I'm not sure the pack dynamics make much of a difference to overall watts, w/kg and bike split time though other than potential advantage of legal draft, and leg fatigue from surges.

If McCrystal had a draft the whole way you'd expect a similar time for say 20w less, or a faster time for same watts.

In Kona, I don't think Hoffman had a full draft the whole way so don't think it's as skewed as you refer.
And as you point out McCrystal certainly had next to no draft for the entire bike leg, and possibly with similar surging at start to get past the trains.

But yes, 2 very different races, and yes, I agree I'm not convinced either way but have seen enough data to suggest overall watts are not as important as cda and w/kg imo contrary to popular opinion.
Open to correction as I said not convinced totally but think its a lot closer than some do.

Do you have any bike files you could share Dan as you've similar performances and Kona files that may help?
What watts and w/kg did it take for your 4:46 ?

Think you've got me mixed up with someone else sorry! I've never been anywhere near that kind of level (I rode a low 5 in Kona '12 and I'm afraid I didn't have a power meter for that or any of my Ironman races).

Off topic but 325W for an IM age grouper is absolutely amazing!!
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Re: Uber Biker Tim Don crushing IM Brasil [Fazz] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe a more recent example is Dumounlin, Nibali and Quintana having all very similar watts per kilo. I believe it would be fair to assume the same watts per kilo for all of them on the Monza to Milano ITT. The results are the guy with the line watts going the fastest moving the wheels through that distance at 50 kph. What changes on top of the wheels is relative size of frame in proportion to rider (so that should make no difference) and personal aero tuck (which should also be proportionally smaller for the small athlete). Moving those wheels is a fixed cost for everyone. You can do the math and the math is the math is the math to move the wheels at 50 kph from Monza to Milano at a fixed speed. That is going to be a higher proportion of the rider available watts. It's just the way it is. (which kind of brings us back to Tim Don's 4:06....not happening with so few top line watts available off his lower kilos).


We can also debate on who is doing the best job on their aero position. Quintana is already penalized because he has to proportionally contribute more of his watts to move his wheels the same speed at Dumoulin, but with what remains, he squanders a bunch of those watts in terms of moving his body through the air, while Dumoulin does not. Both are riding at very similar watts per kilo. Dumoulin has more watts top line watts available to move his larger body through the air, but proportionally he is squandering less than Quintana allowing him to go even faster....maybe faster on less watts per kilo, but as the climbs showed, he did many very close to Nairo's watts per kilo (ex Giro Etna and Blockhaus climbs).
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Re: Uber Biker Tim Don crushing IM Brasil [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Firstly on your Giro comments - I don't think anyone would argue that Dumoulin pushed more w/kg throughout the race than Quintana etc.
Even trainingpeaks had a summary of Dumoulin around the 6 w/kg vs 5.8 for Quintana on that stage alone so not same w/kg as you mention.
That was a flat course and Dumoulin pushed higher w/kg. so he trumped Quintana in 2 areas at least. Prob CDA also.


Your original comments were in regards to Hawaii, and that higher watts trump w/kg.
Those are what I suggest are not the case.

I think on a flat course yes higher watts prob count more than w/kg as you say the math is the math.
But CDA and w/kg comes more into play on most courses than you're comments refer is my point and what the stats seem to back up.

Back to Tim Don crushing it, I think the front page interview was very soft. The Interviewer should have asked the pressing question did you get a moto draft or not?
It's not like anyone is saying it would've been his fault if he did.
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Re: Uber Biker Tim Don crushing IM Brasil [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
OK, course legit? //

I will say with 95% confidence that the answer is no. First of all Tim Don is a very good triathlon pro, uber biker, uh no. That is a term that few are deserving of, I can only think of about a dozen or so going way back to the beginning.


I will begin my list, others can add or amend as they see the term used; (and I will of course give my blessing, or not.. (-;


Lionel Sanders
Sebastain Keinle
Starky
Cameron Dye
Bjorn Anderson
Marino Van Honniker
Norman Stadler
Chris Leito
Torbjorn Sinballe
Steve Larsen
Craig Walton
JurgenZack
Thomas Helleriegal
Mike Pigg
John Howard


As mentioned previously, Jan Frodeno
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Re: Uber Biker Tim Don crushing IM Brasil [aerobike] [ In reply to ]
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Don with another uber?? bike leg

http://www.slowtwitch.com/...ge_San_Gil_6433.html

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram
Last edited by: milesthedog: Jul 3, 17 7:42
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Re: Uber Biker Tim Don crushing IM Brasil [Tricoastal] [ In reply to ]
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Good interview for those who haven't listed yet on TRS.
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