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Running mystery
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My treadmill running seems to be improving. My real running seems to be getting worse.
What could explain this?
What can be done to reverse it?

Theories:
1) Bad data - for lord knows what reason neither of my Garmin watches work properly where I live. I paced my last several triathlon races badly. There is heat, wind and obstacles.
I have not run on a track on a cool, windless day in years.
So - maybe I am just as fast as always
2) My running form has changed in some way that makes running on tread mill easier.
3) Really bad pacing on real runs.

Example:
Treadmill run Wednesday (0% gradient)
1 mile warm up 8.2 mph
4.25 miles at 10.1 mph (hill runner says that's 6:12 pace adjusted)
2 minutes easy
4 x 4:00 minutes hard, with 2 minutes easy
4 minutes at 11.1 mph (hill runner says that's 5:37 pace)
Not devastatingly hard!



Compare this to an outdoors a week earlier:
4.5 miles with slight up hill, wind, 90 degree heat, obstacles and bad watch
Pace - 6:50
4 x 800s 6:10 pace.
Very hard!

All my outdoor runs are like that. There is always something slowing me up.
But at some point, I have to admit that "something" is me.
But why would my treadmill running improve slightly.
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Re: Running mystery [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
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Are you able to verify the speed of your treadmill?
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Re: Running mystery [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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jaretj wrote:
Are you able to verify the speed of your treadmill?


No. Not sure how that is done.
It is not my treadmill.
I use several different brands and gyms.
Same outcome on all of them... fast or faster than ever.

One thing is constant though: gyms are cool. And I make sure I have a fan blowing directly on me.
Last edited by: Velocibuddha: May 26, 17 10:06
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Re: Running mystery [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
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Are you getting similar Heart Rates on all of the treadmills?
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Re: Running mystery [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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jaretj wrote:
Are you getting similar Heart Rates on all of the treadmills?


Yeah - HR same.

I don't think the "bad data" is with the treadmills themselves.

The "bad data" is more likely:
1) Running on a treadmill is different than running outside.
2) Garmin doesn't work near my house.
3) Not coping with heat, wind and topography in a "normal" way.
4) Or some weird combination of all of the above.
Last edited by: Velocibuddha: May 26, 17 10:55
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Re: Running mystery [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
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a treadmill is like running on a cool track. Nothing to throw you out of rythm, get on your pace and settle in and relax. That combined with the heat you say you have outside this shouldn't be surprising I don't think.
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Re: Running mystery [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
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1. You say 0% gradient on the treadmill...1.5% gradient is usually considered equal to running outside on flat ground.

2. Heat has a major impact on running HR, and some RPE. So, if you are holding the same HR/RPE inside and out...and its 90F outside...that's going to be a big factor. I just got done running in 90F (Dallas), my HR was up 18bpm (at the same pace) from 2 weeks ago when it was 75F.

3. Treadmills tend to be pretty inaccurate, and are often calibrated at walking speeds. Mine is about 30-45 s/mile slow, and the calibration procedure zeros out the error @ 3.0 mph. Using my garmin footpod, my treadmill is 30-45 seconds / mile slow at 7mph. ymmv (pun intended).
Last edited by: Tom_hampton: May 26, 17 11:10
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Re: Running mystery [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
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This is not a mystery. You've just learned that your particular treadmill gives you some data (measured by the treadmill, in certain conditions, could be right, could be wrong) and your outdoor runs are measured with a different method (Garmin GPS, in different conditions, could be right, could be wrong) and that they are different. What method do you use to calibrate to each other? RPE and breathing is what I'd recommend.
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Re: Running mystery [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
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Here's another theory.
By running on the treadmill you've trained yourself to run with more vertical oscillation and not enough forward momentum. In other words, you're running in a way that increases your "hang time", you're jumping higher, which allows more belt to pass under you and artificially inflates your pace. Are you bouncy when you run?
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Re: Running mystery [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
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The 0% incline could very well be the problem. I like to keep mine at 2-3%, but that is slightly more than needed, but I figure more is better than not enough.
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Re: Running mystery [vo3 max] [ In reply to ]
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vo3 max wrote:
Here's another theory.
By running on the treadmill you've trained yourself to run with more vertical oscillation and not enough forward momentum. In other words, you're running in a way that increases your "hang time", you're jumping higher, which allows more belt to pass under you and artificially inflates your pace. Are you bouncy when you run?

I think you can definitely game a treadmill. Kind of like improving streamlines off the wall in the pool makes your times faster but won't translate directly to OWS.

just your average age grouper . no one special . no scientific knowledge . just having fun.
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Re: Running mystery [vo3 max] [ In reply to ]
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vo3 max wrote:
Here's another theory.
By running on the treadmill you've trained yourself to run with more vertical oscillation and not enough forward momentum. In other words, you're running in a way that increases your "hang time", you're jumping higher, which allows more belt to pass under you and artificially inflates your pace. Are you bouncy when you run?

I suspect this might be going on.

Or ....
my velocity to weight ratio is unusual.l and each step cause the treadmill to pause.
I am only 170. But how many people run sub 6:10 on treadmill.
And of the few that do, how many are 160+?

Dev says something about "push" versus "pull" runners. I don't know what this is.
But it sounds like it might also be helpful.
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Re: Running mystery [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
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Have you heard of Occam's Razor?

You're looking for a complex answer to a simple problem.

Gaming the treadmill? Velocity/weight ratio screwing up the treadmill? Push/pull runners? Why make it complicated? There's no reason to look for these "complicated" explanations until you eliminate the known factors that clearly cause your observations. Once you've done that, if you are STILL seeing a significant discrepenacy, then maybe these are a factor...but, I doubt it.

Running at 0% grade is MUCH easier than running outside. Known fact. Reset your treadmill to 1.5%.

Running in a cool room with 20mph air blowing on you is NOTHING like running outside in 90F heat with just the 8 mph wind from running. You get that dreaded 5mph tailwind...and now you have what feels like ZERO air cooling at all. The heat makes it feel harder, and makes your heart beat faster to pump more blood to your skin to aid cooling. Further, sweat rate in that heat will be MUCH higher, which also will cause an elevated HR as you dehydrate...several BPM per pound of unreplenished sweat-loss.

Treadmills are notoriously inaccurate. Get a footpod, and calibrate it to GPS running outside. Use that to compare treadmill pace to outdoor pace. Note, this will still have some error because the mechanics are a little difference when you don't have forward motion....and will only work for similar paces....eg LSD pace.

So, if you want to compare treadmill to outside, you have to:

1. Set the treadmill to 1.5% to replicate level ground.
2. Replicate the climate conditions inside/outside (same wind, heat-index = temperature + dew point).
3. Use a calibrated pace measuring device (footpod) and run at that calibrated pace.

I alternate between treadmill (I own one) and outdoors all the time (sometimes every other run in a week). When I do all of the above, and see remarkable consistency between the two. When I cannot control the conditions (its hot/humid as f*** outside)...I just accept that the data is skewed---then I run based on feel and let HR do whatever it does.
Last edited by: Tom_hampton: May 26, 17 13:27
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Re: Running mystery [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
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If you are seeing improvements with your running on the treadmill, then that is a good sign. It's a controlled environment and is therefore a good indicator that your fitness and running efficiency is improving. There are too many variables between the actual treadmill, environment indoors versus outdoors, etc. to be able to provide you with an exact answer as to why you cannot replicate your treadmill performances when running outdoors. Most likely, it is a combination of all of those things. I remember when I ran and coached in college, I heard stories about the Stanford team doing mind-boggling workouts. However, they then couldn't perform in the races at the same level they worked out at. The reason was that they almost always had perfect running weather when training on campus in Palo Alto, but at the races, there was wind, hot or cold temperature, humidity, etc.

If you are already using a HR monitor, I would recommend basing your effort off of it. I used to tell my runners who trained at altitude or in the hot, humid south during the summers that everything should be effort based.
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Re: Running mystery [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Tom Hampton...

Ok......... ... but.

I have tables, graphs and self knowledge.

I know what cool temps, lack of wind, and flatness - are supposed to do.

I even have a pretty good idea - what is wrong with the Garmin data near my house, and how much it is off by.

I still believe that there is probably MORE here than just "bad data."

Compare...
1) 10.1 mph on the treadmill at 0%- should be same as running 6:12 outside. (I am using hillrunners table here- it agrees with your 1.5% theory)
2) Use runworks.com for heat- take 85 F (instead of 90F because its dry).
That's would be 6:23 pace in heat.
3) Wind and hills 6:33...
4) Garmin error 6:43.

I am still 10 seconds/mile faster in doors.

Paralysis by analysis perhaps.

Still worth thinking about.
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Re: Running mystery [trimiler] [ In reply to ]
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Just my 2 cents as a long time runner, I agree that you're likely gaming the treadmill and adapting your stride or you just have a bouncy stride that makes the pace you're​ seeing on the treadmill faster then the effort you're putting out. If that's the case you may be gaming the treadmill more as the pace picks up. Of course I have no scientific evidence of this.

I'm actually the opposite, which is why I hate treadmill running. Running 8 minute pace on the treadmill feels like the same effort when I'm running 7 minute pace outdoors.

Another n1, I had a friend train for a marathon almost exclusively on a treadmill putting in pretty big miles. It was by far his worst marathon and he later commented that he got really fast at running on a treadmill but it didn't translate to running outside. Depending on your background this may seem counterintuitive especially if you train indoors on the bike and get good results when you move outside.

I'll also add that humidity can play a huge factor in slowing down your pace outside. Sometimes I've had to adjust my tempo pace by 20 plus seconds on very humid days.
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Re: Running mystery [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
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1. I would consider 10s/mile well within the noise band of your various calculators. All those things are averages, and will only get you "closer". Feeding estimates from one calculator into another...just increases the error bands further. Without knowing the formulas used you can't really do an error analysis...since it is based on population averages, you have to take it with a large grain of salt.

2. You still haven't accounted for the error in the treadmill indicated speed.

Yes, paralysis by analysis.
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Re: Running mystery [run2tri80] [ In reply to ]
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At first, I think running on a treadmill was helpful.

It helped me to better balance my stride, and increase my cadence. (I have a twisted spin - so my gait is wobbly. My legs are short relative to my height- so my cadence is perhaps too slow).


Now I worry that I might be gaming the treadmill somehow.
That I might be developing good treadmill form, while also degrading my road running form.

It is very very hot in Tucson in the summer and I don't like training at 4am.

I want to do my tempo runs in treadmill.
But I would like to make sure my results could translate to the road.
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Re: Running mystery [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
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I think you're on the right track with your observations.
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