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Track sessions for IM while focusing on bike
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What sort of track workouts do folks like in their race specific prep blocks (~last 2 months) for a full IM? What kind of intervals and what's your ballpark progression as things get closer to the race?

My intervals normally become longer and less intense, pretty much no faster than an easier end of the tempo zone. A typical week is track intervals, tempo, brick, long run + either another easy brick or recovery run. My plan is to focus on bike for ~5 weeks, which would land me with 3-4 weeks before the race, and I'm wondering if there's value in including both track and a tempo run. Leaning towards keeping track sessions and skipping tempo while I'm focusing on bike, what do folks think?
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Re: Track sessions for IM while focusing on bike [friskyDingo] [ In reply to ]
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Leaning towards keeping track sessions and skipping tempo while I'm focusing on bike, what do folks think?

i'd do the opposite
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Re: Track sessions for IM while focusing on bike [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks. You'd do that because tempo is less stressful than track and that way I'm more fresh for bike? Or some other reason?
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Re: Track sessions for IM while focusing on bike [friskyDingo] [ In reply to ]
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A good session I did training for ironman was fartlek, building to a max of 20x2min on, 1 off. On grass fields though. The intervals get harder and harder and at some point you'll probably pop. I don't think I got to 20 intervals though, although that was my goal.
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Re: Track sessions for IM while focusing on bike [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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I think doing track workouts or even tempo runs is unnecessary for age group ironman training, and perhaps even professional as well.

I would run a much faster IM marathon if I just ran 50 miles per week at an aerobic pace, than if I did 25 miles with a tempo and intervals. The TSS would be about the same, but the training effects different.

if you want to do "speed", do strides with full recovery to work on your running form.
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Re: Track sessions for IM while focusing on bike [Thebigturtle] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting. How would you vary your aerobic pace runs? Just change duration of each run? Or maybe do some with "fast finish"?

I think my desire to hold on to track comes from the fact that I feel much more fit after a few weeks of intervals. But I agree that it might not be needed all that much for IM since I'll already be getting quite fit with all the swim and bike training. Maybe I could instead do a longer brick at race pace or something like that.
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Re: Track sessions for IM while focusing on bike [friskyDingo] [ In reply to ]
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I used to love to do 20 x 400 on the track at 75 seconds with 15 seconds rest.
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Re: Track sessions for IM while focusing on bike [Thebigturtle] [ In reply to ]
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Thebigturtle wrote:
I think doing track workouts or even tempo runs is unnecessary for age group ironman training, and perhaps even professional as well.

I would run a much faster IM marathon if I just ran 50 miles per week at an aerobic pace, than if I did 25 miles with a tempo and intervals. The TSS would be about the same, but the training effects different.

if you want to do "speed", do strides with full recovery to work on your running form.

do you share the same idea for the ironman bike?

your target should be to run the ironman marathon at 75-80% of your threshold speed. if you improve your threshold (keeping a good balance of all types of workouts), you should raise your target pace.
On the bike is similar: you do vo2max, tempo, lactate, aerobic etc. if you raise your ftp, your target pace for the bike will improve...

don't skip any type of session on the run, track, tempo or endurance!
the final success is built on different types of "bricks"
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Re: Track sessions for IM while focusing on bike [Plissken74] [ In reply to ]
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Every training session has a recovery cost. Running interval workouts have a very high recovery cost. You are sacrificing energy that could be spent doing more aerobic running. Most age group triathletes are VERY underdeveloped in terms of their aerobic running base. Building a strong aerobic engine for running takes years of training. If you go to letsrun.com most people agree that speedwork is icing on the cake, and that aerobic development should be the primary focus for developing endurance athletes. I was a cross country runner in college. One summer I ran a 10 mile race in 53 minutes off of 8 weeks of 90-100 miles of aerobic running and strides. No track work, no hills etc. In fact, no triathlete has ever run an ironman marathon at 5:15-5:20 per mile pace. The point is that ironman running is not about speed, it is about aerobic efficiency, sometimes referred to as "strength". This is developed by going out and running a lot. The sweet spot for this training in my opinion is high end zone 2 heart rate.
For men under age 45, I think only once your running pace for the top of your zone 2 heart rate is below 7:15-7:30 should you start to think about doing tempo runs and or track work.

As far as cycling goes, the recovery cost for hard workouts is much lower, and the aerobic stimulus from "just going out and riding" is lower than running. I think doing some threshold work once a week ie 3-4x10 minutes at threshold power is a good idea.

Swimming is a different beast altogether, but I do think long aerobic swim sets do have a role in swim training.
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Re: Track sessions for IM while focusing on bike [Thebigturtle] [ In reply to ]
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Thebigturtle wrote:
Every training session has a recovery cost. Running interval workouts have a very high recovery cost. You are sacrificing energy that could be spent doing more aerobic running. Most age group triathletes are VERY underdeveloped in terms of their aerobic running base. Building a strong aerobic engine for running takes years of training. If you go to letsrun.com most people agree that speedwork is icing on the cake, and that aerobic development should be the primary focus for developing endurance athletes. I was a cross country runner in college. One summer I ran a 10 mile race in 53 minutes off of 8 weeks of 90-100 miles of aerobic running and strides. No track work, no hills etc. In fact, no triathlete has ever run an ironman marathon at 5:15-5:20 per mile pace. The point is that ironman running is not about speed, it is about aerobic efficiency, sometimes referred to as "strength". This is developed by going out and running a lot. The sweet spot for this training in my opinion is high end zone 2 heart rate.
For men under age 45, I think only once your running pace for the top of your zone 2 heart rate is below 7:15-7:30 should you start to think about doing tempo runs and or track work.

As far as cycling goes, the recovery cost for hard workouts is much lower, and the aerobic stimulus from "just going out and riding" is lower than running. I think doing some threshold work once a week ie 3-4x10 minutes at threshold power is a good idea.

Swimming is a different beast altogether, but I do think long aerobic swim sets do have a role in swim training.

good point about the stress factor from physical point of view, you are right on the single intense session but you should put together a TSS over the week and consider the whole stress because if I go for 5x1miles on track best pace, I doubt i will put my body under more stress than going for a 15miles "aerobic" run. especially if we talk about athletes who have a bad posture or wrong shoes...
track teaches you also how to run properly with short fast sets, don't see it only as improvement of your speed. and run better means reducing your chances of injury in other "aerobic" long runs.

In red above: ironman is mostly about "your mind". how many times I had my bike power under target and my run was a disaster simply because my mind decided to stop? this is a common issue and it should be tackled from another angle.
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Re: Track sessions for IM while focusing on bike [friskyDingo] [ In reply to ]
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While I don't do IM, I would do whatever it takes to get the most distance with the best threshold pace with the time available to me.

For some people, that may be just running easy while others may be able to improve their threshold pace with the time available to them.
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Re: Track sessions for IM while focusing on bike [friskyDingo] [ In reply to ]
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How many miles are you running? Your asking for an injury based on what you have planned running wise. It's possible to get fast when you run just aerobic but it's not as sexy as track workouts. If you want to smash yourself, your better at doing it on the bike and swim.
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Re: Track sessions for IM while focusing on bike [friskyDingo] [ In reply to ]
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The IM marathon is all about muscle endurance and holding it together at a moderate pace. Long miles and perhaps a weekly tempo session. Forget the track work.

http://www.desotosport.com
http://www.ceepo.com
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Re: Track sessions for IM while focusing on bike [Thebigturtle] [ In reply to ]
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it is about aerobic efficiency,

It's economy people, not efficiency when talking about running. The more economical you are the faster you can run.

If you increase your threshold pace that should carry over into the IM run BUT the problem with an IM run is there are so many variables before you get there that you can F*ck up. Ride too many watts, not eat enough calories, get lost on the swim, not swim enough in training, get behind on fluid intake.

Now the more economical of a runner you are, the greater your chances of screwing up on the bike and being able to salvage the run.

I'd probably rephrase the question as not should I keep the track workouts or not but what can I do with my run training that affords me the most growth in my running fitness/economy.

There may be some value or not to you in running a set of fast 800's but there may be more or less value to you in running a 30 min tempo type run. That's what you have to decide. There may be more value in riding an extra 100 miles per week though, or not.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: May 18, 17 7:54
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Re: Track sessions for IM while focusing on bike [Thebigturtle] [ In reply to ]
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"For men under age 45, I think only once your running pace for the top of your zone 2 heart rate is below 7:15-7:30 should you start to think about doing tempo runs and or track work."

Top of zone 2 HR is definitely closer to 7 then 7:30. Of course the question is, how to make it stay there so I last the entire IM marathon...

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Re: Track sessions for IM while focusing on bike [trimac2] [ In reply to ]
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Usually 35-45 miles a week with no more than 75 as an all time high, but that's when training for ultras, not IM. Luckily, haven't ever been injured, but definitely see the wisdom in not trying my luck, and agree on the swim/bike comment.
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Re: Track sessions for IM while focusing on bike [Plissken74] [ In reply to ]
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"if I go for 5x1miles on track best pace, I doubt i will put my body under more stress than going for a 15miles "aerobic" run" - I may be weird, but I think 5x1miles best pace will leave me destroyed for days beyond belief, whereas a 15 mile run will be mostly fine (certainly fatiguing, but not even close to what mile repeats will do to my leggies).

I guess I'm used to truddling along, and while I feel better when I run more, I feel "more fit" when I do intervals. The race results seem to suggest I am indeed more fit after intervals, but if I truly want to focus on the bike, it's best not to overextend myself.
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