Am I understanding you correctly, that IM70.3 Monterey was a DRAFT-LEGAL race; that WTC threw out the rule book and welcomed Gran Fondo racing in their triathlons?

no. altho starky might have contended it was. the IM races, challenge races, are NOT draft legal. what i'm saying is that the draft-legal races, rather than cannibalizing the no-draft races (like the one this past weekend) have either not stopped the upsurge in no-draft racing or have even acted as a gateway drug to no-draft racing.

my point is that the draft-legal format has really energized the racing scene in mexico at the sprint/oly distance, and has aided or at least not hindered the no-draft racing as well.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

my point is that the no-draft format has really energized the racing scene in mexico at the sprint/oly distance, and has aided or at least not hindered the no-draft racing as well.




Wut?

yeah. thanks. fixed.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

my work here is done.

I would contend however that there is no more non draft racing in Mexico now. Like you said, many showed up to this race with road bikes, wanna bet how much drafting was going on? What they have effectively done is what the ITU has done with their AG racing. Everyone knows that drafting is going to be tolerated even though there is an unenforced rule against it. And we now know under those circumstances, most will choose to draft.

I'm guessing no draft in Mexico is just non existent these days, thanks mostly to the new format of draft legal that seems to be drawing the masses to its format. Perhaps Starky and about a dozen other riders were able and willing to ride into the wind, but the rest probably went unmolested in their nice little(or big) groups.

And I don't blame the Mexicans for going this route one bit, kept the sport alive and growing, and they never were the type to spend a lot of effort in drafting enforcement anyway. Much like many of the European countries, it just becomes part of the culture of racing if you ignore it..

I see nothing wrong with draft legal AG stuff. Wish the US would just finally make it legal, since it already goes on a lot now anyways.

IMO, the DL stuff makes the race a triathlon, rather than a road crit bike race anyways. Forces the swim to mean something, which so many who are good
on the bike cannot stand.

Would not make any difference in most of the race I do anyways. Did the TBF Folsom Olympic race Saturday and I did not see one person during the entire bike
leg. So whether it was DL or non DL, would have made zero difference.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

 I did not see one person during the entire bike
leg. So whether it was DL or non DL, would have made zero difference. //

The difference would be that you would train to swim faster, or even slower to make sure you had a hook up on the bike. That or do races with more than 25 people in them.. (-;

Race was 154 folks.

When you are in the old folks swim start. :)

Oh well, some folks in the US will always want a tri to be a bike crit race

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I've never participated in a draft legal race, but it intrigues me. Please educate me. How do DL races contend with the varying handling abilities of cyclists? Do many groups just end up forming on the course and ability levels just sift out? Are the swim starts partitioned in a different fashion other than age groups? I'm having a hard time understanding how to pull of an age group DL race with a wide variety of fitness and bike handling abilities.

Many triathletes are inexperienced cyclists, uncomfortable in the drops. I think that's why a lot of athletes don't draft much, because they're afraid to "get too close."

I'm cool with drafting. All in favor of it!

i haven't seen my first mexican dl race. i'm hoping to see one prior to the cozumel race at the end of sept but if not before that then it'll be cozumel. i'm hoping to race it.

my understanding is it's kind of like a very busy gran fondo meets triathlon.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

The ideal race format for AG'ers that I think works best with getting the races going and also is feasible....1 20k loop or 2 x 10k loop for bike. 10k loops are long enough that you don't really intefere with other waves so ideally likely the 20k would be easiest. That way you can send off waves every 5-10 mins, and simply make cross gender drafting illegal (which is what happens now at USAT DL races/ITU worlds...but of course ITU worlds sends the gender waves completely apart almost but they have whole day to do the races). But if you out swim your wave and "draft" with the group in front of you....so be it. That way the RD doesn't have to pay to close roads for 6 hours and can do it in 4 hours, etc.

ETA: In terms of handling varying bike handling, from the races I've been in and at, I think you simply notice who can and can't ride within the group (same as when your in a group ride). Now that may or may not help you, because it can be easier to "sit in" on a large group even if your struggling/suck at handling. But it's then up to you how to handle yourself within that group.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

The first thing you have to understand is DL racing is NOT a bike race! It is not a crit race! Folks do not all start at the same time.
I have raced many DL races. Bike handling, and type, really mean nothing. There is very little drafting.

Now, if you do a WTC race where they stack WAY too many folks at the same time on the road together, yep, as today, you can get drafting.
But how often do you ever hear of big bike crashes?

The only folks I really know who are against DL races are the stud bikes who cannot swim, let alone run.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I like the idea of an individual //40k TT oly distance non-draft race, and the sprints IMO should be individual/non-draft

and I *also* like the idea of a 56m/112m draft-legal race

I also don't have much business sitting in the middle of a peloton. I can handle a bike, but should get some experience before say trying to go through turns in a group--I could see myself causing some problems there. No problem in a ~6-12 person group ride of course exchanging the lead and taking turns, but we stretch out on descents. In short I have no idea what I'm doing and wouldnt feel comfortable in a draft-legal race. Of course perhaps a moot point as I'd fall off the back anyways hehe

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//Noob triathlete//bike commuter//ex-swimmer//slower than you

Dave I would disagree. With more and more AG DL opportunities popping up, drafting and bike handling skills are hugely important.

3 things I think AG'ers need to do in order to race "safe" (IE- not take out the guy beside you):

-communicate in the group
-being comfortable handling your bike with arm signals (flicking elbow, pointing, etc)/drinking in group/getting in and out of shoes
-fast rotating paceline (not the kind you sit on the front for 2 mins, but the kind that you sit on front for 12s max, etc)

You may have seen very little drafting but so far at the 4 AG races I've been too, if you wanted to contend you had better be in the group (triathlon and duathlon).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

That's what I assumed from Dan's opening post.

I'm ready to experiment with draft legal racing at all distances. WTC doesn't seem to care a lot about drafting enforcement among AGers (sorry Jimmy) and nearly all local tris I do don't have any draft marshals so the only enforcement is peer pressure. I'm much happier now on my road bike than my tri bike and would enjoy riding the road bike in tris if it wasn't such a competitive disadvantage. It's unlikely I'll ever buy a super bike. The bike is my strongest leg so draft legal isn't likely going to help me competitively compared to non draft legal, but after 30+ years of racing I don't care that much anymore. I think I'd enjoy throwing the road bike in the car and heading to a tri.

It seems that the USAT national champs at the Oly distance may be one of the last very competitive non draft legal AG races left in the U.S, so I feel for folks who have focused on that distance for many years and don't want it to go away.

What on earth do you mean by this? How is a tri currently just a crit race? You aren't making any sense in this discussion and your typical n=1 view of things is so limited that it provides no value.

I wonder what the # of participants is needed to afford/offset the cost of closing traffic for an event versus what currently is done w non-draft races being "open" to traffic w/ some intersections policed. Thinking out loud, but you will be hard pressed to have groups of 6-10 riding 2-3 wide in lane of traffic dodging cars and cars dodging them. I guess you could do what some cycling races does and the "main" group gets police escort and then if you fall off, you ride smart on the open roads. But then again if you send off athletes in waves there is no main group to police but several main groups.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Thinking out loud, but you will be hard pressed to have groups of 6-10 riding 2-3 wide in lane of traffic dodging cars and cars dodging them//

The flip side to that is you can now use smaller loops on the bike and not worry about giving everyone some clear space. If you think about it, it is all upside for a RD to have DL races. Easy and shorter loops on the bike(in which they might actually get road closures) no marshals to patrol for drafting, and no headaches after the race is over. Results will likely be the ones that stand. Pretty much why ITU went that way a long time ago. Now they only have to worry about helmets and goggles getting into a box, or someone fudging the dismount line...

USAT's DL worlds qualifier went with this format in 2015 (the pack I was in had 2 different wave of athletes in it, as we were 1 lap ahead of athletes who joined our pack from later waves). This was the concept of Rev3 Rush. Essentially anything goes on the bike, waves going off every 15 mins apprx ....If wave 1 athlete is in a pack on lap 3 and is joined by wave 3 athlete who is on lap 1, so be it. It's essentially, you do x laps on the bike, and if you draft, you draft. This is a great way to limit costs on small area, and also if you simply send waves off every 10 mins, then you also limit your cost of having to close the course. Major drawback is "fairness", but again what do you want. More events to be affordable or "fair"?

Now one year later at the 2016 qualifier and this year atleast at duathlon nationals (which is ITU qualifier), the bike loop was longer (i believe 1 loop). That is a more *fair* overall concept, and you can still send waves off on same rotation (5-10 mins etc), but your drawback is larger area of closed course.

I think the smaller the area of closed course, the easier/cheaper it will be for RD's to do these type of events. Only issue is there really is no way for different waves not to draft on a 5k course, and it will take FOREVER if you did it like ITU where waves have the whole race and next wave doesnt go off until previous wave is completed (or atleast completely off the bike course).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

(drops mic) (massive crowd laughing sound)

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no sponsors | no races | nothing to see here

I've officiated and raced age group DL races, and to be honest, there were fewer crashes than there were at the same events in the non-DL waves(iirc, I think there might have been one crash total, and it was a solo rider that crashed themselves). It's just like a fondo or a bike race (in pretty much any category except S1/2), you have a variety of skill levels in any pack... The packs tend to be smaller and more spread out, those who are more fearful to draft tend to ride on their own, or sit in and leave big gaps... When I raced a DL Du qualifier, I rode mainly in a group of 2-3, the odd time we'd have someone try to jump in as we caught them, but most of them would get dropped. We had one guy catch us (he was about 15s down coming out of T1), but he was tentative, and leaving big gaps, that one of us would have to come around and close, so eventually we let him ride off the front for a few km and fry his legs, and then we surged by and dropped him (there was a huge benefit to being in a pack, because there were very strong winds that day). The biggest pack I saw was a women's pack of around 18 all roll into T2 together, and to be honest, it was the safest dismount I've ever seen with that kind of crowd getting to the line together, people were talking, telling others what they were doing, or where they were heading, no crashes, and honestly on par if not better than many ITU elite fields rolling into T2 as a bunch...

The crashes in DL racing mainly happen because people forget to shoulder check, are not holding their line, and/or are not communicating... The groups that move well are the ones, that are constantly discussing, encouraging each other, and calling out any anticipated problems on the course. They also tend to be the ones with quick rotations, rather than people riding 2min out front, and then effectively attacking as they pull through...

In general, pretty much everyone who did the races were all talking about how much they enjoyed the race format, and the different experience. I can totally see it benefiting all races in the sport down the road... new people coming in, don't need a tri bike, just a road bike, and there's less of a disadvantage to using that bike in a DL race. It will also hopefully improve people's riding and handling skills, which will make all triathlon safer...