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Re: My Ankle Band Experiment Went Exactly As Expected [spookini] [ In reply to ]
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spookini wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
I think some other posters are over-complicating this.


But...that's what we do here.

Oh right (slaps head), how could I have forgotten...I've been around here long enough to know better. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: My Ankle Band Experiment Went Exactly As Expected [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I have to agree with Eric here.
The pull is fundamental to body alignment.

If the vector forces from the pull point any direction other than forwards the body responds with altered alignment in both horizontal and vertical.

The reason for doing the suggested exercises is to allow the swimmer to understand that it is not some strange construction particular to his body that is causing the misalignment and that good alignment can be achieved by any swimmer.
Disabled swimmers missing limbs or very low functioning limbs manage to do so, able bodied swimmers get it easy if they can only let go of these crap excuses of legs too heavy etc.
And that is all they are, excuses.

If I am asked to do so-called 'stroke correction' classes and a typical tri guy with huge crossover kicks and sinking legs is the subject, the first thing is to let them feel that the water will support them, the second is to get some propulsion.

So we go right back to the basic kicking on the side until they can do this competently.
This is alternated with the three sculls, front, centre and back to begin to learn to get a grip on the water and that the full stroke is merely a combination of all three sculls.

Then from kicking on the side with the hand resting on the hips, the arm is recovered with a relaxed high elbow and placed in the water in front of the shoulder as the body rolls onto its front.
During this they will discover that the head maintains alignment with the body and that the arm recovery can be accomplished without disrupting alignment.
So kick on the side for a bit then recover arm and roll into the water face down kick a bit and stop.

Then next up is put those sculling actions to use and kick on the front streamlined, make one full underwater sweep using all three sculls until arm rests back on the hip as the body rotates onto its side.. So stretch forward, front scull, middle scull, rear scull, gently lift elbow enough to place hand on the hip.
Again, during this the swimmer learns that a underwater stroke can be accomplished without destroying body alignment.

You have now completed the complete stroke except for the timing of one side to another, all the while maintaining body alignment.
Once these basics are achieved and the swimmer knows that good alignment is possible for them to achieve and they are getting a good grip on the water, they advance very quickly from there.
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Re: My Ankle Band Experiment Went Exactly As Expected [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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Lyr - Thanks. Since you've been around swimming a long time, when did this "kicking on your side" come into vogue??? I had never seen it until maybe 10-12 yrs ago when all of a sudden these aspiring tri-guys/girls started doing it in the pool. Prior to say 2005, most kicking was either done with the old kick board, on your back in the streamline position, or on your stomach with a light sculling motion to come up for air. Also, even in 2017 I rarely see any good club or college swimmers kicking on their sides but rather it is mostly tri-guys/girls.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: My Ankle Band Experiment Went Exactly As Expected [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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There's nothing new under the sun. I was going that back in the '80s

Not really sure, but I would guess that we did it more in younger age groups than in college. If we did it in college it was more early season than mid or late season

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Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: May 18, 17 23:01
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Re: My Ankle Band Experiment Went Exactly As Expected [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Give me a non swimming 5 year old kid and 2 weeks for half an hour after school and they will be swimming competently with relaxed recoveries, good body alignment and timing and a decent ability to scull.
That's all it takes and then throw them into squad.
They have learnt the fundamentals, then the stroke can be refined as they develop power and endurance in the squad environment.
But they have learnt the most important lessons already so most kicking sets etc can be done with boards etc as that is a much more sociable way for kids to spend time in squad. It also puts vulnerable ears in the water less.
That is why if you turn up at any pool and watch squad, the first thing you notice is that they all are flat on top of the water.
They have been taught from year dot to swim properly.

Unlike the many LTS pools that basically teach younger kids to stay alive but also make the mistake of trying to teach the full stroke when it cannot be done properly due to the relative proportions of small children.
They end up with straight arm recovery and weird timing due to the overly large head and relatively short limbs.
Sort of works as they are a ball of buoyant blubber, but it sets in motion poor habits that are hard to break later.

When I teach kids to swim it is exactly what I outlined in the previous post.
The difference is the smaller ones will use small fins and cut down pull buoys for the streamlining arm until kicking on the side become competent.
The kicking on the side is the single most important thing they learn, after that it is easy.

I think that kicking on the side first become popular in a widespread fashion with the first publication of Earnest Maglishco' s most excellent book called 'Swimming faster' in the 90's?
It was the first reasonably scientific approach to swimming analysis ever written and you find those same exercises I have mentioned quite highly recommended by him.
He was the first to really put instrumentation on swimmers and do velocity graphs on bodies and limbs and put forward that it really is critical to roll in swimming freestyle, basically suggesting that freestyle is best swum on your side and the many high speed photo sequences he painstakingly took proved once and for all how far the best swimmers actually roll.
He was also the most public proponent of the swim stroke being comprised of sculling movements.
He then went on to update the book to 'Swimming faster' and then 'Swimming fastest'.
All of these editions being considered by coaches as 'the bible' for swimming technique.


Now the really stupid thing is that a 5 year old kid can learn to swim well in a few weeks but adult onset triathletes spend years making the same stupid mistakes and thinking up more and more creative excuses as to why it is not their own stubborn fault for not simply stopping and starting again from scratch and building good stroke fundamentals before trying to progress any further.
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Re: My Ankle Band Experiment Went Exactly As Expected [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I've done side kicking my whole life - early 90's onward - at every stop/team along the way.

I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html
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Re: My Ankle Band Experiment Went Exactly As Expected [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
There's nothing new under the sun. I was going that back in the '80s

Not really sure, but I would guess that we did it more in younger age groups than in college. If we did it in college it was more early season than mid or late season

OK, I stand corrected then. It is possible I did it as a little guy and just don't remember it, but we definitely never did side-kicking from age 13 onward, but then again we never did that much kicking anyway.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: My Ankle Band Experiment Went Exactly As Expected [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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lyrrad wrote:
Give me a non swimming 5 year old kid and 2 weeks for half an hour after school and they will be swimming competently with relaxed recoveries, good body alignment and timing and a decent ability to scull.
That's all it takes and then throw them into squad.
They have learnt the fundamentals, then the stroke can be refined as they develop power and endurance in the squad environment.
But they have learnt the most important lessons already so most kicking sets etc can be done with boards etc as that is a much more sociable way for kids to spend time in squad. It also puts vulnerable ears in the water less.
That is why if you turn up at any pool and watch squad, the first thing you notice is that they all are flat on top of the water.
They have been taught from year dot to swim properly.

Unlike the many LTS pools that basically teach younger kids to stay alive but also make the mistake of trying to teach the full stroke when it cannot be done properly due to the relative proportions of small children.
They end up with straight arm recovery and weird timing due to the overly large head and relatively short limbs.
Sort of works as they are a ball of buoyant blubber, but it sets in motion poor habits that are hard to break later.

When I teach kids to swim it is exactly what I outlined in the previous post.
The difference is the smaller ones will use small fins and cut down pull buoys for the streamlining arm until kicking on the side become competent.
The kicking on the side is the single most important thing they learn, after that it is easy.

I think that kicking on the side first become popular in a widespread fashion with the first publication of Earnest Maglishco' s most excellent book called 'Swimming faster' in the 90's?
It was the first reasonably scientific approach to swimming analysis ever written and you find those same exercises I have mentioned quite highly recommended by him.
He was the first to really put instrumentation on swimmers and do velocity graphs on bodies and limbs and put forward that it really is critical to roll in swimming freestyle, basically suggesting that freestyle is best swum on your side and the many high speed photo sequences he painstakingly took proved once and for all how far the best swimmers actually roll.
He was also the most public proponent of the swim stroke being comprised of sculling movements.
He then went on to update the book to 'Swimming faster' and then 'Swimming fastest'.
All of these editions being considered by coaches as 'the bible' for swimming technique.
Now the really stupid thing is that a 5 year old kid can learn to swim well in a few weeks but adult onset triathletes spend years making the same stupid mistakes and thinking up more and more creative excuses as to why it is not their own stubborn fault for not simply stopping and starting again from scratch and building good stroke fundamentals before trying to progress any further.

Actually, i have "Swimming Faster" and "Swimming Even Faster" on my bookshelf but had forgotten his emphasis on the roll in freestyle.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: My Ankle Band Experiment Went Exactly As Expected [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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When my coach has me use an ankle band it is in conjunction with a pull buoy, and he wants me to do that so I do not kick. The band pretty much forces no kick. Reason for it is to get used to keeping the position while swimming in a wetsuit and not kicking, One of those save the legs during the swim for the bike and run things.
Last edited by: tyme: May 19, 17 9:19
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Re: My Ankle Band Experiment Went Exactly As Expected [tyme] [ In reply to ]
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tyme wrote:
When my coach has me use an ankle band it is in conjunction with a pull buoy, and he wants me to do that so I do not kick. The band pretty much forces no kick. Reason for it is to get used to keeping the position while swimming in a wetsuit and not kicking, One of those save the legs during the swim for the bike and run things.

What does "keeping the position" mean in this context?

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Re: My Ankle Band Experiment Went Exactly As Expected [tyme] [ In reply to ]
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tyme wrote:
When my coach has me use an ankle band it is in conjunction with a pull buoy, and he wants me to do that so I do not kick. The band pretty much forces no kick. Reason for it is to get used to keeping the position while swimming in a wetsuit and not kicking, O
ne of those save the legs during the swim for the bike and run things.


Pretty sure that part in bold is an urban myth. I don't see any front pack pros doing this. They all kick. It might be two beat, but they kick. I'd like to see the study that proves that not kicking at all in the swim makes:
  1. Overall race time faster (since at the end of the day, that's the goal)
  2. Makes bike and run faster to compensate for slower swim

Lots of people claim they do not kick in a wetsuit, but I have never come up behind another swimmer in tri who is not kicking. I've been in the front group in my wave, starting in last wave and swimming past 1000-1500 swimmers and never once yet seen the zero kick swimmer.

Why is your coach getting you to "save the legs". Isn't that the same as him saying, "don't swing your arms during the run, just use your legs". Why would you do that? There is a reason for swinging arms during the run and kicking in the water. Most of it has to mainly do with application of force from the opposite part of the body.
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Re: My Ankle Band Experiment Went Exactly As Expected [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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some quick observations - this morning i popped a band on after a lapse of 18 mos or so - was using it regularly at that time and had (slowly) built to 10 x 100m. As a MOP swimmer with a weak upper body, it absolutely helped me get stronger.

Today's bout demonstrated that the skill perishes :<

still, some takeaways:

* I've got long arms -- contrary to what another poster suggested, a shorter stroke getting the pull on faster worked much better (for me) than an extended one

* the band will find any asymmetry, hitch or lag, and so encourages smooth, even shoulder rotation

* visualizing my arms' spindle to be down toward the belly button rather than between the shoulder blades helped activate the right 'pop up' muscles
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Re: My Ankle Band Experiment Went Exactly As Expected [kiki] [ In reply to ]
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kiki wrote:
* I've got long arms -- contrary to what another poster suggested, a shorter stroke getting the pull on faster worked much better (for me) than an extended one

Which is why such blanket advice is not typically valuable. Different strokes for different folks, and all that.

kiki wrote:

* the band will find any asymmetry, hitch or lag, and so encourages smooth, even shoulder rotation

How do you know what to change? You seem to be describing a chain of "if I feel this with a band, that means that I'm doing that, and I have modify my stroke thusly to eliminate that so I won't feel this." That works if you already know how it all fits together and you've actually had a decent stroke in the past, right?

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"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: My Ankle Band Experiment Went Exactly As Expected [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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One thing that may help gradually get to the point of using the band is the use of a pull buoy that I've been using. It's called the Eney Buoy, and is 2 chambers that one can fill with water as desired. Start with it empty for a really buoyant feel, but as you add water it becomes much heavier and forces you to clean up your stroke. It also gives a hell of an upper body workout. This might be a way to get yourself to using the band with no buoy in a gradual manner. I really love using it and feel it's added a lot of power to my stroke.

https://eneybuoy.com

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Last edited by: ggeiger: May 22, 17 9:11
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Re: My Ankle Band Experiment Went Exactly As Expected [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:


* the band will find any asymmetry, hitch or lag, and so encourages smooth, even shoulder rotation


How do you know what to change? You seem to be describing a chain of "if I feel this with a band, that means that I'm doing that, and I have modify my stroke thusly to eliminate that so I won't feel this." That works if you already know how it all fits together and you've actually had a decent stroke in the past, right?[/quote]


as someone who learned young but was never a squad swimmer, part of the fun of the band is that it enforces experimentation out of the usual groove

Can it help pinpoint a dropped elbow or poor head position? That seems unlikely. I think its utility is limited to shoulders/core, but it has big utility there.

I'm not sure I understand your question, so am not sure this answers it . . .
Last edited by: kiki: May 22, 17 9:08
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Re: My Ankle Band Experiment Went Exactly As Expected [kiki] [ In reply to ]
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kiki wrote:
klehner wrote:


* the band will find any asymmetry, hitch or lag, and so encourages smooth, even shoulder rotation


How do you know what to change? You seem to be describing a chain of "if I feel this with a band, that means that I'm doing that, and I have modify my stroke thusly to eliminate that so I won't feel this." That works if you already know how it all fits together and you've actually had a decent stroke in the past, right?



as someone who learned young but was never a squad swimmer, part of the fun of the band is that it enforces experimentation out of the usual groove

Can it help pinpoint a dropped elbow or poor head position? That seems unlikely. I think its utility is limited to shoulders/core, but it has big utility there.

I'm not sure I understand your question, so am not sure this answers it . . .[/quote]
The question is how you go from some feedback while using an ankle band to what needs to be changed? How do you know it *isn't* your head position, or if it is your left arm or right arm that is doing something wrong?

How would the OP know what to change after using an ankle band?

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"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: My Ankle Band Experiment Went Exactly As Expected [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Given that one (ostensibly) notices the hitch/flaw with the ankle band on, it seems logical that one would experiment (with corrections) while keeping it on until finding whatever correction helps make the hitch/flaw fade, no?
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Re: My Ankle Band Experiment Went Exactly As Expected [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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what JoeO said

-- it may not be the most accurate way to pinpoint flaws, but sticking a band on forces you to listen to what your body is doing in the water, and adjust intuitively to move more efficiently.

Is learning from adjusting sinking legs a better mode than learning than through a coach's cues? No idea. I do know that i was far more streamlined after a few months in a band than I was prior.
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Re: My Ankle Band Experiment Went Exactly As Expected [kiki] [ In reply to ]
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kiki wrote:
what JoeO said

-- it may not be the most accurate way to pinpoint flaws, but sticking a band on forces you to listen to what your body is doing in the water, and adjust intuitively to move more efficiently.

Is learning from adjusting sinking legs a better mode than learning than through a coach's cues? No idea. I do know that i was far more streamlined after a few months in a band than I was prior.

There is very little that is intuitive about efficiency in swimming, as even a cursory observation of triathletes swimming will demonstrate.

A few minutes after guidance from a good coach would've had you at least as streamlined. The difference is that using a band requires "find something that makes me feel streamlined", which a coach can say "do this to become more streamlined." In addition, the former may actually not make you more streamlined, or might do so in a way that compromises your work output.

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"Go yell at an M&M"
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