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For those interested in the physics behind those dimples on your sleeves or that Nike tape
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Hey everyone, I'm relatively new here but I just started a blog that may be of interest to some. Basically I just want to help explain to people who may not have engineering backgrounds the physics behind various things that pop up in triathlon gear.

https://www.engineeringfitness.org/home/2017/5/5/primer-aerodynamics-and-cycling


I'm curious to hear any comments or questions anyone might have since I'm pretty new at this sort of thing.
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Re: For those interested in the physics behind those dimples on your sleeves or that Nike tape [stumpyx13] [ In reply to ]
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That was a great read! Subscribed to your blog :)


stumpyx13 wrote:
Hey everyone, I'm relatively new here but I just started a blog that may be of interest to some. Basically I just want to help explain to people who may not have engineering backgrounds the physics behind various things that pop up in triathlon gear.

https://www.engineeringfitness.org/home/2017/5/5/primer-aerodynamics-and-cycling


I'm curious to hear any comments or questions anyone might have since I'm pretty new at this sort of thing.
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Re: For those interested in the physics behind those dimples on your sleeves or that Nike tape [stumpyx13] [ In reply to ]
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Well written. I'm a research physicist/engineer (industrial and academic) - I enjoyed that and learned something.
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Re: For those interested in the physics behind those dimples on your sleeves or that Nike tape [stumpyx13] [ In reply to ]
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That may be the best explanation of aerodynamics on the bike that I've read. Thanks!

No coasting in running and no crying in baseball
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Re: For those interested in the physics behind those dimples on your sleeves or that Nike tape [stumpyx13] [ In reply to ]
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Nice info. I was wondering if you yourself are involved with the CFD stuff. It is very interesting to me and I wish I had time to learn. I currently do Density Functional Theory calculations which is a way to approximate Schrodinger's (and Dirac's) and compute electronic properties of solids(usually). Are you aware on how far off we are from full CFD simulations of a bike and rider? I was just thinking how cool it would be to use a machine learning algorithm to train a virtual rider to ride a bike in a full CFD simulation that included the full classical physics details of the bike, rider, and wheels.
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Re: For those interested in the physics behind those dimples on your sleeves or that Nike tape [honestly] [ In reply to ]
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Really good. Thanks!
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Re: For those interested in the physics behind those dimples on your sleeves or that Nike tape [stumpyx13] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you for sharing.
So the dimples around the shoulders of my Castelli T1 Stealth are not just a marketing gag, but they really work.
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Re: For those interested in the physics behind those dimples on your sleeves or that Nike tape [honestly] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the comments everyone, I'm glad it's helpful.


honestly wrote:
Nice info. I was wondering if you yourself are involved with the CFD stuff. It is very interesting to me and I wish I had time to learn. I currently do Density Functional Theory calculations which is a way to approximate Schrodinger's (and Dirac's) and compute electronic properties of solids(usually). Are you aware on how far off we are from full CFD simulations of a bike and rider? I was just thinking how cool it would be to use a machine learning algorithm to train a virtual rider to ride a bike in a full CFD simulation that included the full classical physics details of the bike, rider, and wheels.


I haven't worked with CFD for a while now but I would say we're probably at least a few (5+?) years off from doing full simulations of bike and rider. One of the most difficult parts of doing what you're suggesting (from a CFD standpoint) would be to allow the mesh to change in time without having any issues and making sure the unsteady boundary conditions are met at the moving parts.

It would be pretty cool to see what an "optimized" rider would look like in terms of position, torque curves, etc though.

Also, if yall would like to hear about anything else, let me know and I'll try my best to explain it!
Last edited by: stumpyx13: May 13, 17 6:11
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Re: For those interested in the physics behind those dimples on your sleeves or that Nike tape [stumpyx13] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks, I enjoyed reading.
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Re: For those interested in the physics behind those dimples on your sleeves or that Nike tape [stumpyx13] [ In reply to ]
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I get that a seam on fabric will trip the air, but then why does leg hair slow you down?

Wouldn't closely cropped hair achieve the same effect?
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Re: For those interested in the physics behind those dimples on your sleeves or that Nike tape [stumpyx13] [ In reply to ]
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stumpyx13 wrote:
Hey everyone, I'm relatively new here but I just started a blog that may be of interest to some. Basically I just want to help explain to people who may not have engineering backgrounds the physics behind various things that pop up in triathlon gear.

https://www.engineeringfitness.org/home/2017/5/5/primer-aerodynamics-and-cycling


I'm curious to hear any comments or questions anyone might have since I'm pretty new at this sort of thing.

Good read.
Whats your take on dimples on aero helmets or deep dish wheels?
Are they gimicks, or is there some science behind them?

res, non verba
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Re: For those interested in the physics behind those dimples on your sleeves or that Nike tape [RoYe] [ In reply to ]
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timbasile wrote:
I get that a seam on fabric will trip the air, but then why does leg hair slow you down?

Wouldn't closely cropped hair achieve the same effect?

Thats a good point, closely cropped hair likely would achieve a similar effect. The leg hair analogy was made more to make a point and I was thinking of my leg hair, which I'll say is not closely cropped haha. For a jungle-like scenario, I imagine the drag from the many small cylinders (hair) would outweigh any benefit to be gained by tripping the boundary layer and likely cause the wake to be larger overall.


RoYe wrote:
Good read.
Whats your take on dimples on aero helmets or deep dish wheels?
Are they gimicks, or is there some science behind them?

I think the deep dish wheels are meant to make the wheel look more wing-like to the incoming airflow (ie. eliminate the cliff from the rim to the spokes), which should eliminate the wake from the rim in theory (if we neglect rotation - which adds some difficulties). For the helmet I suppose it depends on how long back the helmet is - if it has a very long tail, it likely won't gain too much benefit from dimples since the flow shouldn't be separating very much anyways. For the newer helmets with smaller tails, the dimples would likely help reduce the drag coefficient since it has more of a "jump" in profile from the tail to your back.

I like analyzing things - http://engineeringfitness.org
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Re: For those interested in the physics behind those dimples on your sleeves or that Nike tape [stumpyx13] [ In reply to ]
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Very nicely written. A nit to pick:

"Pressure in-balance" should be "pressure imbalance." It's the very fact that pressure is NOT "in balance" that gives rise to pressure drag.

Really enjoying your site so far, thank for writing it!

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
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Re: For those interested in the physics behind those dimples on your sleeves or that Nike tape [stumpyx13] [ In reply to ]
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Nice


Just thinking this one through a bit...


Since Re is directly proportional to fluid velocity x linear dimension
then increasing the size of the object means the "critical" velocities drop.


The "critical" velocities you've shown are for a sphere of diameter 10cm. Putting aside that we are not exactly spherical, increasing a sphere's size to 1m (order of magnitude of the human body) and the corresponding "critical" velocity range drops to 10% or so of those values (i.e. 7mph smooth to 3mph rough).

We don't ride that slowly generally, and when we do, it's because overcoming gravity has become the primary energy demand factor rather than aerodynamic drag.

There are body parts however that fit into a size and velocity range of interest, e.g. upper arms and lower legs for instance, which are approximate cylinders with diameters that potentially place them in the "critical" velocity zone where strategic roughness elements may indeed have significant beneficial effects due to this Cd v Re relationship. But only in the sense of of reducing drag significantly for those elements, and of course it provides for a marginal (but useful) reduction in Cd for the whole body + bike system.

Measurable reductions in Cd are definitely possible with the strategic use of trips or seams on the upper arm and lower leg and so it's feasible there are various factors in play that result in a reduction in Cd including Re effects, but Re impacts may not for example apply to objects that are an order of magnitude larger (e.g. the torso) or smaller (e.g. the front forks) because the velocities at which they apply are either too fast or slow to be relevant.

OK, thought stream over - pick away...

http://www.cyclecoach.com
http://www.aerocoach.com.au
Last edited by: AlexS: May 15, 17 0:08
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Re: For those interested in the physics behind those dimples on your sleeves or that Nike tape [AlexS] [ In reply to ]
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Wow. Super interesting discussion Alex. Thanks for that.

All this has me wondering about the following question: many of the fastest skinsuits in the last couple years use rough fabric not just on the arms, but also on the back. Is there any reason for doing this other than Re effects?
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Re: For those interested in the physics behind those dimples on your sleeves or that Nike tape [AlexS] [ In reply to ]
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AlexS wrote:
Since Re is directly proportional to fluid velocity x linear dimension
then increasing the size of the object means the "critical" velocities drop.


The "critical" velocities you've shown are for a sphere of diameter 10cm. Putting aside that we are not exactly spherical, increasing a sphere's size to 1m (order of magnitude of the human body) and the corresponding "critical" velocity range drops to 10% or so of those values (i.e. 7mph smooth to 3mph rough).

We don't ride that slowly generally, and when we do, it's because overcoming gravity has become the primary energy demand factor rather than aerodynamic drag.

There are body parts however that fit into a size and velocity range of interest, e.g. upper arms and lower legs for instance, which are approximate cylinders with diameters that potentially place them in the "critical" velocity zone where strategic roughness elements may indeed have significant beneficial effects due to this Cd v Re relationship. But only in the sense of of reducing drag significantly for those elements, and of course it provides for a marginal (but useful) reduction in Cd for the whole body + bike system.

Measurable reductions in Cd are definitely possible with the strategic use of trips or seams on the upper arm and lower leg and so it's feasible there are various factors in play that result in a reduction in Cd including Re effects, but Re impacts may not for example apply to objects that are an order of magnitude larger (e.g. the torso) or smaller (e.g. the front forks) because the velocities at which they apply are either too fast or slow to be relevant.

Thanks for the comment - this thought stream is right on the mark. I didn't include notes on larger bodies to keep things simple. The whole body situation is a little more complicated to think about since it depends heavily on which position you're in and the general shape is significantly different from canonical experiments/examples. For situations where the shape doesn't match experiments, it is usually more helpful to think of things in terms of how fast the pressure is changing along your body (or more simply how much the flow is being deflected) since it is the pressure gradient that really determines how likely the flow will separate, and evaluating the boundary layer state at these points.

For example, say you're in the aero position, the flow is being deflected much more around your shoulder/collar bone than it will be along your back. That means the pressure gradient is much higher at the shoulders than the back and the flow has a higher tendency to separate. Next, to evaluate whether a trip will be helpful, we have to guess at what the boundary layer state is. Since it is kind of the "first point of contact" of the incoming air, the effective Re will be low and the boundary layer is likely laminar. Therefore in this situation a trip may help. While in the back situation, the flow has been going along the body for a while so it is likely turbulent and combined with a smaller pressure gradient, means only having a smooth surface here is likely most desirable.

I like analyzing things - http://engineeringfitness.org
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