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Maybe Altra is an option?
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History: I've been running for 14 years. For the first 10 I wore asics kayanos with no issues ever until I would get a month out of a pair and start getting pain like they were worn out, buy another pair same thing, went to running show store and it was determined I need a neutral shoe, switched to nimbus, everything is zen. Then the nimbus 17 came out, they were super super soft and I, being a large runner could actually feel some out the outsole creases in the shoe. I adapted, did my first ironman, feet were happy, no issues.

The following year the 18 was much firmer, my body was not happy. When I would do my slower runs I found myself actually forcing my heel to land first because if I didn't it felt like my heel was getting beat up. I also found that I had to tighten the crap out of my shoes or my heel felt like it was getting beat up. Did a marathon, ended up with plantar fasciitis. This was my most miserable running season ever. After the marathon I tried the saucony triumph. It was better, and my shorter runs felt great, but same deal on the long runs and I still found I had to tighten the hell out of these.

Then I tried Hoka bondi 5. Someone said the transition to a lower drop shoe would be a challenge, but it was not at all. I have found that for shorter runs they work great, for the longer runs they seem ok. I find if I over tighten them I end up with some heel pressure and am slower. If i under tighten my big toe gets rubbed up pretty hard on the side of my right foot. All in all its not bad.

I have for casual wear a shoe called a cushee, which is just a canvas loafer on a layer of foam, its soft and offers no support. I had to run after a kid the other day and was suprised how well it felt.

So that leads to me wonder, was the nimbus 17 so soft that I was effectively making it low drop under my weight that when I went to the 18 even though my foot usually landed flat it was causing heel pressure or impact? Has anyone who switched to 0 drop had this sort of experience where removing the heel lets the forefoot land first without placing any pressure on the heel and creating a better experience?
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Re: Maybe Altra is an option? [kblahetka] [ In reply to ]
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I have been running 0 drop for about 5 years now. It pretty much forces your to land fore/mid foot, and if the running mechanics are right your heel basically just taps the ground after the forefoot. This causes almost no impact or stress to the heel, although initially it can cause a large amount of stress on the Calf.

The higher the heel the more likely that a flat landing foot strike will cause pressure on the heel or even for your heel to actually take more of the initial impact, since the higher the heel the more downward pointed your toes are.

Other than Altra, Merrell also make some nice 0 drop shoes, but they have almost no cushion, so if you need some for the forefoot, they may not work well. Newton has some 2mm drop shoes which may also suit you. Topo Athletic also has some 0 drop shoes.

I have worn all those brands:
Altra (Tried 2 models, so many more that may be better) are not bad, but with my feet they sometimes cause some wierdness in my 2 right toes on the right foot.
Newton (Only tried Distance V) once in awhile the same issue as the Altra.
Merrell I have had no issues with the ones I have tried, but stepping on small stones can hurt depending on the model, because of the thing sole, especially the Vapor Glove, which I do like, but no cushion at all.
Topo Athletic I have 1 model and they have been pretty good. No real issues, some minor cushion but not much at all.

The other nice thing I like about most of those shoes is the wider forefoot area, so that your toes can spread out better.
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Re: Maybe Altra is an option? [tyme] [ In reply to ]
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Merrell only make trail running shoes now. Some are still very minimalist, but they definitely have trail features.

I used to like the Bare Access. I was sad when they discontinued it.
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Re: Maybe Altra is an option? [kblahetka] [ In reply to ]
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Fwiw my history has been Asics 33 series > various New Balance in EE > Hoka (forget which one) in wide > Altra (Escalante and Torin). I was, historically, an injury prone runner (probably due to too much speed work) but never anything serious: usually just a tweak that would side-line me a for a week or two... or a bit more if my neuroma flared up. After switching to Altra I noticed my run form changed subtly: I could feel my stride got a bit shorter, I naturally landed more mid foot, and, surprisingly, I could tell my posture changed. At the end of long runs now my joints don't feel beat up like they used to. Instead I feel my abs and glutes are fatigued (a good thing IMO).

In short, my N=1 tells me that the change to zero-drop, zero support footwear has been a positive for me. I think there might be something to the biomechanical argument they make. This is my longest running streak injury free (since last October knock on wood). As an aside my feet actually did get wider after I transitioned to the Altras and started running in them. Many of my dress shoes no longer fit me any more :/
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Re: Maybe Altra is an option? [lordhong] [ In reply to ]
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They still have the bare access 4 on their site, but it is on sale, so I guess it may be discontinued.

They did just release a new version of the Vapor Glove though, which for some reason falls under their trail running list, but I cannot consider it a trail shoe with the tread patter that it has.
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Re: Maybe Altra is an option? [tyme] [ In reply to ]
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tyme wrote:
They still have the bare access 4 on their site, but it is on sale, so I guess it may be discontinued.

They did just release a new version of the Vapor Glove though, which for some reason falls under their trail running list, but I cannot consider it a trail shoe with the tread patter that it has.

The Bare Access 4 is quite old (2015 I think...), it's indeed the last iteration they made.

Vapor Glove has a protection plate, hence the trail classification. It's the successor of the Trail Glove. Road Glove was the older non trail running version.
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Re: Maybe Altra is an option? [lordhong] [ In reply to ]
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Also, for what it's worth...

I am of the opinion that you can get "ideas" from forums on shoes, but no bodies, feet, strides are the same and you need to go out and run to find your own shoe. Like you already know anyway from you long years with one shoe. I actually fell in the same boat.

My first real running shoe was the Saucony Kinvara. I ran 2 iterations of it without any problem, but the third iteration didn't feel right anymore. So I looked elsewhere. I ran all these without much success for a reason or another:
Altra The One - this was actually good. But...
Altra One2 - this didn't work out for me
Altra Instinct 3 - Nope
Altra 3-Sum and 3-Sum 1.5 - Those were great but... discontinued. Durability was an issue though
New Balance v1600 - Same issue as Kinvara
Brooks PureConnect - Nope
Merrell Bare Access - Worked, but discontinued
ON Cloudracer - It actually works for me, but durability is a problem
Topo Fly-Lite - Similar issue as Kinvara, although to a much lesser degree. However, I blister like mad in these

Now... Someone told me to try the Clifton. Coming from very tiny shoes, I looked at these with doubt. But heck, I'm through my third pair now, and also bought Clayton and they work for me. Strangely enough. (Tracer doesn't though).

That being said, the next iteration of Clifton might kill it for me, like the Kinvara. But so far, so good.
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Re: Maybe Altra is an option? [lordhong] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah I figured that is why they are listing as a trail shoe. Funny thing is the first 2 versions were listed as road shoes. I think the protection plate may actually not be a bad thing for using on the road, since the original version had nothing and just little stones could hurt pretty good if they caught you right.

But yeah I agree looks like they are basically getting rid of the running line of shoes, which is annoying.
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Re: Maybe Altra is an option? [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
In short, my N=1 tells me that the change to zero-drop, zero support footwear has been a positive for me. I think there might be something to the biomechanical argument they make. This is my longest running streak injury free (since last October knock on wood). As an aside my feet actually did get wider after I transitioned to the Altras and started running in them. Many of my dress shoes no longer fit me any more :/

From a biomechanical standpoint, the key is just landing on your forefoot and having ankle flexibility. This essentially makes the dissipation of vertical energy occur over a longer period of time (since if you land on your forefoot some of the vertical motion goes into flexing your ankle and extending your calf); if you land on your heel, your calf doesn't absorb any of the vertical energy and the energy has to be dissipated in vibrations in your bone/knees etc which is not good for them.

If the zero-drop shoes help you do that, then you should keep up with them. I personally have gone through a similar transition that you have and have settled on Altra Ones and my feet feel so much better; I used to have plantar problems all the time and now I rarely feel pain in my arch. As an aside, my feet are naturally wide and the wide toe box makes a massive difference for me.

I like analyzing things - http://engineeringfitness.org
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Re: Maybe Altra is an option? [lordhong] [ In reply to ]
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lordhong wrote:
Also, for what it's worth...

I am of the opinion that you can get "ideas" from forums on shoes, but no bodies, feet, strides are the same and you need to go out and run to find your own shoe. Like you already know anyway from you long years with one shoe. I actually fell in the same boat.

My first real running shoe was the Saucony Kinvara. I ran 2 iterations of it without any problem, but the third iteration didn't feel right anymore. So I looked elsewhere. I ran all these without much success for a reason or another:
Altra The One - this was actually good. But...
Altra One2 - this didn't work out for me
Altra Instinct 3 - Nope
Altra 3-Sum and 3-Sum 1.5 - Those were great but... discontinued. Durability was an issue though
New Balance v1600 - Same issue as Kinvara
Brooks PureConnect - Nope
Merrell Bare Access - Worked, but discontinued
ON Cloudracer - It actually works for me, but durability is a problem
Topo Fly-Lite - Similar issue as Kinvara, although to a much lesser degree. However, I blister like mad in these

Now... Someone told me to try the Clifton. Coming from very tiny shoes, I looked at these with doubt. But heck, I'm through my third pair now, and also bought Clayton and they work for me. Strangely enough. (Tracer doesn't though).

That being said, the next iteration of Clifton might kill it for me, like the Kinvara. But so far, so good.

that's funny, I could've written that. Still pissed at saucony for messing up kinvara, can't believe they did that... cloudracers are awesome but $
I have thought about trying cliftons.... thanks for the post, I will def try now.
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Re: Maybe Altra is an option? [kblahetka] [ In reply to ]
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If you're still getting toe rub in the Hoka Bondi 5 it's time to probably go to wide widths since Hoka increased the width of their line up this season. If your heel is slipping use the top eyelets or a heel lock lacing system.

If you like Asics you can try the Gel Pursue 3 which I found to be more lively than the Cumulus 18 (which I'll be reviewing soon). The Cumulus also comes in wide widths.

You could try the Adidas Supernova, which I love. Or the Ultra Boost which is the closest thing to sex your feet will ever have unless you've got a foot fetish..and there is nothing wrong with that.

Brooks - try the Ghost or Glycerin. I feel like the glycerin is firmer and to me felt better. On the whole I know more people who choose the Ghost over the Glycerin. The ghost comes in wide widths.

New Balance - 840 or the 880 and iirc at least one of those comes in widths.

As you probably know there is a correlation between weight and running injuries. If your stride rate is < 168 or 169 spm there is also an increased injury risk. (Morgan)

The majority of people who tell you they land a certain way are probably full of shit, about 50% get it wrong. The trick is to know if you're talking to the right or wrong 50%. Goss (2012, 2015), Shorten (2014) and Zdzarski are enough names for those research inclined to track that info down.

There isn't a lot of solid research to back up zero drop or higher drop shoes as better or worse.

The TL:DR of this post: Get the shoes that feel the best to you.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Maybe Altra is an option? [lordhong] [ In reply to ]
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Still pissed Altra dropped the 3 sum.
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Re: Maybe Altra is an option? [risslerp] [ In reply to ]
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risslerp wrote:
Still pissed Altra dropped the 3 sum.

You tell me... the first one, the orange, was the perfect shoe. I ran everything with that. The 1.5 was pretty good too, still have one pair. Dreading the day I have to throw them out.
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Re: Maybe Altra is an option? [Bypasskid] [ In reply to ]
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Just got the new Altra Torin. They definitely win out over the Hoka Clifton 3 for me. Amazing shoe and very comfortable, supportive and responsive.
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Re: Maybe Altra is an option? [risslerp] [ In reply to ]
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I still have an original pair I use a daily shoe, but just too worn to run it. I never did try the 1.5, I bought a pair and they had different sizing than the original, so I had to send them back.
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Re: Maybe Altra is an option? [lordhong] [ In reply to ]
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Just thought I would let you know I saw they released a new Bare Access shoe. Think it is in the classification of road/trail, don't know how it is compared to the old ones but It is called the "Bare Access Flex."
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Re: Maybe Altra is an option? [tyme] [ In reply to ]
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I see this... It's a completely different shoe though.

I wish companies would stop naming all their shoes the same thing with a slight variation on the name (but a huge variation on the shoes). Brooks Pure_XXX line was the same :|
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Re: Maybe Altra is an option? [lordhong] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah looked like a pretty different design. I do hate that also. It really confuses things when companies use the same name for basically a different product.
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