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Re: Lionel's St. George 70.3 race report blog post [Ron_Burgundy] [ In reply to ]
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I can think of a few non-real world cyclists who have FTPs in the 427-430w* range at low to mid 170lbs.
Having said that, those ones were done on a Wattbike.

*One did 427, one did 430.
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Re: Lionel's St. George 70.3 race report blog post [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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His bike power may have been lower because of altitude? 3k-4k starting elevation.
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Re: Lionel's St. George 70.3 race report blog post [bluefever] [ In reply to ]
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bluefever wrote:
It's a nice post from Lionel, very good read.

But the AB stuff on this thread is pretty much the same as the ITU discussion, which was pretty much:

AB wins a race, followed by
..yeah but xxxx had a faster run
..yeah but yyyy lost too much time in the swim
..yeah but the pack didn't work hard enough for person zzzz to catch up

Result is the same. AB won. Again and again.

True.
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Re: Lionel's St. George 70.3 race report blog post [Jackets] [ In reply to ]
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Jackets wrote:
bluefever wrote:
It's a nice post from Lionel, very good read.

But the AB stuff on this thread is pretty much the same as the ITU discussion, which was pretty much:

AB wins a race, followed by
..yeah but xxxx had a faster run
..yeah but yyyy lost too much time in the swim
..yeah but the pack didn't work hard enough for person zzzz to catch up

Result is the same. AB won. Again and again.


True.

Exactly


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Re: Lionel's St. George 70.3 race report blog post [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Sean H wrote:
Veeeeeeerryyy innnnnnnteresting. So he has 2nd worst bike power of his pro career and still out splits Brownlee.

My guess is it maybe had to do with his swim...he pushed it a lot harder (wasn't this a 90 second improvement, or something like that?) over last year's race.
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Re: Lionel's St. George 70.3 race report blog post [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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I dunno; that entire posting read like serious gamesmanship by LS to me.
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Re: Lionel's St. George 70.3 race report blog post [bluefever] [ In reply to ]
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bluefever wrote:
It's a nice post from Lionel, very good read.

But the AB stuff on this thread is pretty much the same as the ITU discussion, which was pretty much:

AB wins a race, followed by
..yeah but xxxx had a faster run
..yeah but yyyy lost too much time in the swim
..yeah but the pack didn't work hard enough for person zzzz to catch up

Result is the same. AB won. Again and again.

It's improved over the years here but there is still some people who don't understand pro racing. Specifically that they aren't going 100 percent all the time and will do just enough to win or stay in the place they are in. They aren't going for time.

It was brought up in the other thread with Alistair only winning by whatever time it was. Well duh why would he go faster, it increases recovery time.
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Re: Lionel's St. George 70.3 race report blog post [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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I think what Lionel is experiencing in this race and future ones where he makes a good pack in the swim, are the affects of having to swim a lot harder than he is used to. Old Lionel would just sit on his pace once popped early, and swim hard. New Lionel has to swim like his life depends on it, go with pace changes, and just do whatever he has to to hold his group. There is a cost to this, I just think he doesn't realize that yet.

And his power is not that out there, I cannot vouch for whatever he measures it with. I know that Bjorn did a workout tt here up our mountain and held 465 watts for over 45 minutes, all in the aero position. Maybe loses 10 watts and goes an hour? He was a little bigger than Lionel, I think low to mid 170's lbs at the time. They are probably very similar riders time wise too.

Lionel next project is to get more comfortable in that 2nd pack swimming, he is not going to make the lead group any time soon, or ever. Just how it is with swimming. But he can learn some things not to burn so many matches and retain more of his most powerful weapon, the bike. He will keep all those ITU guys coming up in distance honest for sure, and crush a few of their dreams!!!
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Re: Lionel's St. George 70.3 race report blog post [newManUK] [ In reply to ]
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agreed. Lionel had a great race particularly on the run, however tri is swim bike and run with transitions and AB is the best theres ever been
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Re: Lionel's St. George 70.3 race report blog post [Ron_Burgundy] [ In reply to ]
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id love to see him at a cycling itt with some hitters. canada nats, ontario provincials, something like that.
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Re: Lionel's St. George 70.3 race report blog post [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
I think what Lionel is experiencing in this race and future ones where he makes a good pack in the swim, are the affects of having to swim a lot harder than he is used to. Old Lionel would just sit on his pace once popped early, and swim hard. New Lionel has to swim like his life depends on it, go with pace changes, and just do whatever he has to to hold his group. There is a cost to this, I just think he doesn't realize that yet.

And his power is not that out there, I cannot vouch for whatever he measures it with. I know that Bjorn did a workout tt here up our mountain and held 465 watts for over 45 minutes, all in the aero position. Maybe loses 10 watts and goes an hour? He was a little bigger than Lionel, I think low to mid 170's lbs at the time. They are probably very similar riders time wise too.

Lionel next project is to get more comfortable in that 2nd pack swimming, he is not going to make the lead group any time soon, or ever. Just how it is with swimming. But he can learn some things not to burn so many matches and retain more of his most powerful weapon, the bike. He will keep all those ITU guys coming up in distance honest for sure, and crush a few of their dreams!!!

Mark, thanks for coming on here consistently and giving these perspectives. I never would have thought of that and it makes total sense. he knows he needs to be closer to the front for worlds so like you say, he needs to find that group that may be just a fraction out of his comfort zone and needs to hold on to them no matter what.
Great perspective, much appreciated.
Mark
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Re: Lionel's St. George 70.3 race report blog post [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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He puts in more hours of training for short course than basically everyone. AB and JB's training is legendary. They ruin training partners at an alarming rate. Ben Kanute on his AMA thread mentions how people who try to train with them either burn out or get injured. They were putting in 30-40 hr weeks for short course at higher intensity, you think going long is going to ruin him? I just don't see it. If anything, it may help prolong his career by cutting out some of the speed work demanded by ITU.

"It's good enough for who it's for" - Grandpa Wayne
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Re: Lionel's St. George 70.3 race report blog post [andy12] [ In reply to ]
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andy12 wrote:
dirtbag wrote:
Crazy that Lionel says it is the second worst power average of his pro career. On a tough course pretty remarkable.
His competitors read that and probably worry what happens if I race against him and he has a really good day.
He is still learning a lot, and says he trained too hard leading into the race. It will be interesting to see how much
improvement he can make going forward.


I think his competitors probably think about him only a tiny fraction of the amount slowtwitch does

This is total bullshit. Lionel has won somewhere north of 15 IM 70.3 races and multiple fulls over the last 4 years. If you think his competitors don't think about him you're an idiot.

With that said, AB is an absolute boss and as everyone else has stated he did just enough to win because he's tactically just as good as he is talented/hardworking.
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Re: Lionel's St. George 70.3 race report blog post [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Just a reply in general:
. What I find intriguing, is that he speaks to pushing to hard in the weeks prior (and race week). Isn't this where an athlete should be most relying/sticking to the coaches plan? I wonder who was "at fault" in overeaching.. coach or athlete? I suspect athlete. Which begs the question: how coachable is Lionel? Given his reluctance to even listen to others in the past, it makes me wonder if there isn't still some growing pains there.
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Re: Lionel's St. George 70.3 race report blog post [JBell] [ In reply to ]
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his ftp at weight of 75 kg puts him at domestic pro category. Lionel is a lot bigger than the tour riders, 410 seems about right for one of the top 3 cyclists in triathlon.
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Re: Lionel's St. George 70.3 race report blog post [Rest] [ In reply to ]
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Rest wrote:
His bike power may have been lower because of altitude? 3k-4k starting elevation.

Best explanation on this thread. That would cover it. At 1000m altitude, you have around 89% of the barometric pressure that you do on sea level. St. George official altitude is 872m which gives you 91% of the barometric pressure. . I don't know what the race altitude is but sounds like you're in the range. Lionel's power should have been down somewhat, but as you can see even on the tough course the bike split is fast on "lower power" because of the lower air resistance on this course.
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Re: Lionel's St. George 70.3 race report blog post [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Rest wrote:
His bike power may have been lower because of altitude? 3k-4k starting elevation.


Best explanation on this thread. That would cover it. At 1000m altitude, you have around 89% of the barometric pressure that you do on sea level. St. George official altitude is 872m which gives you 91% of the barometric pressure. . I don't know what the race altitude is but sounds like you're in the range. Lionel's power should have been down somewhat, but as you can see even on the tough course the bike split is fast on "lower power" because of the lower air resistance on this course.

At what elevation does he train/live at? I come from Illinois at around 600ft elevation. I definitely felt some difficulty catching my breath...but I'm just making excuses.
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Re: Lionel's St. George 70.3 race report blog post [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Rest wrote:
His bike power may have been lower because of altitude? 3k-4k starting elevation.

Best explanation on this thread. That would cover it. At 1000m altitude, you have around 89% of the barometric pressure that you do on sea level. St. George official altitude is 872m which gives you 91% of the barometric pressure. . I don't know what the race altitude is but sounds like you're in the range. Lionel's power should have been down somewhat, but as you can see even on the tough course the bike split is fast on "lower power" because of the lower air resistance on this course.

At some point we might be over thinking this a bit, basically he comes in 30 seconds down to what we could argue is the best talent in the sport over the past 10 years.

When you race 2-3 IM and 7-8 Him per year you can't expect to be 100% perfect all the time.

I would guess he misjudged his taper a bit... And also pretty much everyone lost 10-15 seconds in t1 and T2 to AB.

As much as I am a huge fan of Ls, I can't help but think that he is still a bit of a raw talent, contrast this to AB who honestly had a pretty good race....but was never in a position where he was required to have a great race.

Anyways just the first of many to come..looking forward to the "NEW" Era.

2C


Maurice
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Re: Lionel's St. George 70.3 race report blog post [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Rest wrote:
His bike power may have been lower because of altitude? 3k-4k starting elevation.


Best explanation on this thread. That would cover it. At 1000m altitude, you have around 89% of the barometric pressure that you do on sea level. St. George official altitude is 872m which gives you 91% of the barometric pressure. . I don't know what the race altitude is but sounds like you're in the range. Lionel's power should have been down somewhat, but as you can see even on the tough course the bike split is fast on "lower power" because of the lower air resistance on this course.
I don't think that explains it as Lionel averaged almost 20 watts more at St. George in 2016 - 333 watts in 2017 vs 352 watts in 2016.
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Re: Lionel's St. George 70.3 race report blog post [badgertri] [ In reply to ]
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badgertri wrote:
andy12 wrote:
dirtbag wrote:
Crazy that Lionel says it is the second worst power average of his pro career. On a tough course pretty remarkable.
His competitors read that and probably worry what happens if I race against him and he has a really good day.
He is still learning a lot, and says he trained too hard leading into the race. It will be interesting to see how much
improvement he can make going forward.


I think his competitors probably think about him only a tiny fraction of the amount slowtwitch does


This is total bullshit. Lionel has won somewhere north of 15 IM 70.3 races and multiple fulls over the last 4 years. If you think his competitors don't think about him you're an idiot.

With that said, AB is an absolute boss and as everyone else has stated he did just enough to win because he's tactically just as good as he is talented/hardworking.

Ease up bud. More an indication of how much slowtwitch thinks of him
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