The stack and reach is listed on my frame of my BMC TM02.

Sorry for not being specific. I meant to specifically reference Pad Stck and Pad Reach, which are more important for super bikes that don't use a traditional stem setup. Actually, most of them do publish frame stack and reach on their product page (such as the giant).

PremierBike (Tactical) is on our website home page under "Geometry" - then "Bike Fit Guide" which is a drop down (2nd) tab. If you take a look and can recommend a better way to display it I would appreciate the in-put. We want it to be as easy as possible to find and then select the correct size. - thanks.

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Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com

There's really an easy answer. It's really hard to determine armpad stack and reach in a meaningful way.

For example, the pad X/Y chart Orbea has provided is simply incorrect. We just measured the Ordu OMP in a Small and Medium just this morning. We measured the "minimum" position - stock stem, pitched down, and the 5 mm minimum armpad pedestal. We found that the chart Orbea provided to Slowtwitch shows a minimum position of 2 cm lower than what we measured. You can almost get there with a -17 stem, but even then it doesn't adequately explain the difference.

We found the reach was wrong as well - setting the armpad clamp in the most aftward position puts the reach 2 cm closer the rider than the corresponding stem configuration shows on Orbea's chart. Also, Orbea's selection of 70 mm stem to 120 mm stem seems a bit arbitrary, but to each their own.

Orbea isn't the only one, though, as Felt's chart isn't to be trusted for the integrated IA. We've found the reach is pretty good, but the stack is off by around 15 mm. The IAx position is pretty reliable.

We maintain our own armpad stack/reach tables and use it every time we do a "Fit First" bike sale. So we've actually measured every single size in every single bike we sell. We correlate our measurements to the published frame geometry, and we maintain the database every time we spy a spec change - different armpads, different extensions, etc. We find that the difficulty comes due to four reasons:

1. Specs change without warning. A new extension spec can alter armpad position significantly. We've had the same bike on the floor with two different extensions, one of which was 2 cm taller and 15 mm longer than the other. Maddening.
2. The center of the pad is the most common armpad position measurement but it's inferior to using the trailing edge of the armpad. Riders determine elbow position by where the armpad starts, not where it is centered.
3. Published numbers almost always come with bikes with integrated aerobar setups. There is less equipment variability, so armpad positions are more likely going to be fixed and offer less adjustability. Bikes with traditional steerer tubes and stems are more of a crapshoot.
4. Manufacturers tend to tell you which adjustments are possible, not which adjustments are wise. What should they publish?

• Orbea picked 70 mm to 120 mm as it's stem length ranges - why not 60 mm? Why not 130, 140, or 150 mm? Reasonable people can disagree.
• Quintana Roo ships bikes with 12+ cm of steerer tube exposed above the headtube. We see QRs - routinely - with as many as 8 cm of headset spacers underneath the stem clamp (we even see stems pitched up on these monstrosities). So should QR say that their bikes have 8 cm of stack adjustment? QR might say that don't intend for the bikes to be set up like that, yet they still ship them like that (despite other manufacturers cutting steerer tubes at 8 cm and 9 cm). Reasonable people can disagree.
• Felt's bayonet bars allow 6 cm of armpad pedestals, yet the next size bike is about 2 cm taller. Is 6 cm too many? Reasonable people can disagree.
• Scott's Plasma5 ships with the Profile Design Aeria bar which allows 8 cm of armpad pedestals. Is 8 cm too many? Reasonable people can disagree.
• These stories can be repeated for virtually every manufacturer.

We've spent dozens and dozens of hours measuring, re-measuring, investigating, and identifying positions in order to maintain our database so that our fit process is accurate and quick. We've had to revisit some bike lines several times as we notice spec changes or we identify a measurement we made that doesn't seem congruent with the rest of the line.

In sum, measuring armpad positions is hard and it's always subject to change (or disagreement about what's appropriate), so the easiest path is to avoid publishing anything at all.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

Thanks Trent. I feel like you have given me thorough answers in every topic I posted and I definitely appreciate your time in explaining things here.

I am trying to learn more as I just bought my Orbea Ordu, and still in the phase where I am questioning whether I bought the right bike / size.

Dan,

I think your Geometry chart is excellent. If I knew of Premier Tactical when I was buying a tri-bike, I would've bought it. It's simply an outstanding bike at an outstanding price point.

I quickly scanned your site again and these are some questions I have

1) Small sized bike shows two ranges for seat height marked with SM and MD. I am not sure why and what that means.
2) I seem to remember that the SM frame uses an undermount to achieve the lowest stack. It would nice to know what stack range would call for an undermount
3) Your video gives me the impression that pad reach is related to effective extension length. So, if i need the maximum pad reach on a chart, am I limited in my extension reach? If I need the minimum pad reach, do I have to deal with a long J-extension?
4) What's the bullhorn reach?

I am new to tri-bikes (just bought my first one) and have limited knowledge on the topic. I am a short guy with a long torso so I tend to care how a bike handles. I don't like how a short bike handles. These questions are from that perspective.

got to keep the "bike shop fit" market going...

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Your discussing a lot here so let me take them one at a time.

I can install both our medium and small seat post in the small frame. That is why I list both. Once you get to the medium frame there is so much overlap - different seat tubes are not required. Thats all about minimum insertion length and individuals with long legs.

The chart you are looking at does not show any geometry for under-mount. That is all just our straight set-up. We can do an under-mount in some circumstances on the small for athletes that need a smaller bike but - its not a good solution accept in very few circumstances. Stand over height could still be one issue along with other ride quality issues.

The pad (reach) is not relative to the extension length. That is one great feature of the bike. Pad length (reach) and width are totally independent of extension length. And, stack is independent of both those adjustments. Super easy to fit any athlete. This is an important distinction in how versatile our adjustment is.

To get a good geometry for those athletes under 5'5" our system (and in my opinion most systems) need to change. I am currently working on an XS Tactical that will provide for a proper fit and ride for smaller athletes - it will handle and ride like our other sizes do for larger athletes. A true scaling in geometry including crank length and aero-bar width. It costs a lot to do it right but its the right way to provide the product.

I will get you the bullhorn reach tomorrow.

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Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com

Pad stack and reach and extension measurements are so very adjustable down to the .5 mm with the cockpits available in the market. Thank you to all the bar and bike manufacturers you have helped make the fit world better. When you are shopping for a tri bike go by your frame stack and reach . get the closets one to your fit numbers and go with it.

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Robert Driskell
Certified Master Body Geometry fit Technician
Certified Master Retul Fit Technician
Zipp Service Course Specialist
Bikes Plus Pensacola Florida

650c wheels?

I'm very interested now...on behalf of the wife.

Yes - 650 wheels. Hoping for February 2018.

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Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com

Awesome, so when I am back in the market for a new tri bike, I may have an option. Although extrapolating from your other sizes, each size allows 25cm less pad Y, so the xs will have a minimum pad Y of ~531 cm. Which would be 25 cm higher than my current pad Y. Extrapolating the Pad x though would be a similar amount off.

Min stack will be about 500 mm, max 560 mm with stand over height at 712. Still a work in progress.

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Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com

Which Ordu did you purchase, the OMP frame or the OME frame? Did you have a bike fit done before purchasing the bike? What makes you feel that you may have purchased the wrong frame and/or size?

I purchased the OMP frame. Did have two bike fits done prior to purchasing the bike. The first fit was absolutely horrible. The 2nd fit was from the bike shop owner who was an ex-pro with some TT knowledge. The bike shop is primarily a road bike outfit.

I think I got the right frame size. I'm just a bit over analyzing. I am short legged and long torso'd so there's always a bit of a compromise I have to make when it comes to bike sizing.

I bought the S, which has a 71 degree fork angle, so I don't like how the bike handles, especially with a 120mm stem. I would also like a longer wheelbase to get more of my weight on my rear wheel. The rear draft box for the Ordu is also difficult to fit on / off the size S frame. So, from time to time, I wonder if I should've gotten a M with a very negative stem.

I have the OMP frame in Medium. With pad stack and reach at 610 and 485 respectively, I have a 80mm -17 degree stem on the bike. I kept debating between the small frame with a longer stem or a medium frame with a shorter stem. I went with the medium frame based on some suggestions by others. I find the bike handles really well.

The medium bottoms out at about 620 with the stock stem, which has a pitch of 7 degrees (I believe).

I think you made the right choice with the size. Can your saddle come forward at all or is it maxed out?

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

This is typically why I buy framesets and build up to the specs I need. May be a bit more expensive, but I get something that fits with the parts I want.


I'm running a COBB JOF 55 at 5cm behind the BB. With the available saddle mounts, saddle could easily go forward or back from where it's currently at.

For sure. If you want complete customization, it's the way to go.

Many customers just want something they can ride off the floor, so our default ranges for armpad positions are with everything stock.

For customers that might need a bit of customization, sometimes a few piecemeal changes does the trick. We include the stock stem configuration in our internal fit tool so that the fitter can recognize the options and liberties they can take to change a stock configuration.

For some bikes to reach a desired armpad stack that can mean a stem change. For others it can mean a topcap change. And for others it might even mean a different aerobar spec. It's up to the fitter to discern what would be ideal based on the customer's needs. It's all the more reason why using armpad stack/reach and understanding the relationships between the frame geometry and the armpad position can be difficult.
That provides even more justification that going with the larger frame, as you did, was the better choice.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

I know exactly what you mean. Not many manufacturers provide good information on min and max pad stack for their aerobars, and with at least one manufacturer, the pad stack changes as you adjust the width of the pads (such as the case with the Zipp Vuka Aero bars I have currently on my Ordu).