I think more dangerous. One factor is the increased speed on a motorcycle vs a bicycle. I kid in my practice made a left turn out of his driveway. Didn't see the motorcyclist who rammed into side of vehicle and died. In a similar circumstance when I was on a bicycle all I got was broken tooth. I guy in my church in his 50s didn't see a tobacco rack being towed by a tractor at twilight and plowed into it and hit head on steel bar and was killed. In both cases if on bicycles likely still alive today.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

That would be my guess, on the other hand, on a motorcycle you're wearing a helmet that is a hell of lot more protective than a cycling helmet.

There's probably no accurate way to quantify or compare the risk as it applies to you in particular.

I've worked trauma since 1999. I've seen people mangle themselves every way imaginable on motorcycles. It didn't stop me from buying one, though. Not because I'm necessarily smarter than the average rider, but I'm without question more risk-averse than most, and I'm keenly aware of what I need to do to avoid avoidable accidents. I ride mostly on roads I know, at reasonable speeds, always in light, dry weather, always sober. I use LEDs for optimum visibility. I know the most dangerous places for riders is traveling through intersections and past areas where cars can pull out in front. I treat those like the death traps they are, hands covering the brake and clutch, eliminate blind spots, and try to have an escort vehicle in proximity when crossing through them.

If you control for the idiot factors that come into play in the motorcycle injury/fatality statistics, you'll find that it grossly over-inflates the inherent danger of motorcycle riding.

The biggest danger I face, because I eliminate all the knowns, are the freak occurrences that could happen regardless of your vehicle or driving patterns. Rear end collisions at intersections, driver crossing the road (I hug the far line when traffic approaches), drunk/distracted drivers, etc. Those variables are entirely out of our control and pose a far more serious risk to motorcyclists than they do automobile occupants.

But they also pose the same or worse threat to bicyclists. Road cyclists are literally inches from death with every passing vehicle. It's largely why I stopped riding, even before I had kids. Simply not worth the risk, for the level of enjoyment. I don't feel that same threat on a motorcycle, at all. In my view, if you optimize your safety profile by doing all the obvious and the not so obvious things, you're safer on a motorcycle than you are on a bicycle, though neither is inherently safe. Obviously, rider skill level plays an enormous role in that equation.

The most dangerous thing I've done with regard to my motorcycle is not having discussed it with mrs sphere before bringing one home. I nearly lost an appendage that day.

Also, a subtle reminder every time I climb on is helpful.




Edit to add: Reference len's anecdote. Every other story of motorcycle fatalities involves lack of visibility. Driving at potentially fatal speeds (which is relatively low speed) in areas where vehicles pull out is a near guarantee of catastrophe. This is almost entirely avoidable.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Hey man, awesome info! It's really interesting to me that you feel safer on your motorcycle than on your bike, and I was wondering if anyone would chime in as such. Like you, I'm risk averse on my bike and hyper aware of what's going on around me because it's so sketchy to not really know what's coming up behind you when you're inches away from some ditch on the side of the road wearing nothing more than a helmet and lycra!

And what kind of ride is that? It's gorgeous!

Riding safe and knowing that you never are, is key.

Imagine the statistics if cyclists on average behaved in similar ways as motorcyclists, with speed, alcohol, night and wet weather riding, heavy traffic, etc. It'd be a blood bath.

I own a Harley Davidson Forty Eight (2015), though it's been modified to the extent that it's not easily recognizable as such. I bought it mostly for that purpose; riding is just the icing on the cake.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

I live in a heavy urban Chicago suburb. I feel safer riding in traffic on my motorcycle than a bicycle (the bike is bigger, I ride in the traffic lane not on the side, and can keep pace or ride faster than traffic). I almost always wear full safety gear (leather jacket, steel-toe boots, gloves, even when hot out). I've had the state-provided beginner and advanced safety instruction.
But that is city riding at speeds of 15 - 35 mph. Ride on the highway or expressway at faster speeds and the risks increase.
What would be more dangerous - getting tossed off your bicycle at 17 mph or getting tossed off at 45? Both are bad, but one is much worse.
That old adage about not if you'll get in an accident but when, finally caught up with me after 25 years of riding. Two years ago I was riding my older bike. I was two blocks from home going through an intersection, probably 15 mph when my front brake locked suddenly. I was thrown to the ground hard but luckily no other cars were involved. I walked away from it, but still broke a few ribs and my hand.

that is an awesome plate!

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ΜΟΛΩΝ-ΛΑΒΕ
we're doomed

My thoughts on the question you pose.

There is a continuum of risk--think of it like a ladder. There are things you can do [in cycling or motorcycling] that will cause you to climb way up that ladder
*Cycling--riding on roads with little to no shoulder; riding on roads with high volume of fast traffic...
*Motorcycling--riding "twisties" above your skill level; riding without proper protective gear...

There are things you can do to bring down the level of risk
*cycling--ride during non-peak traffic hours, wear a mirror and watch traffic coming up behind you...
*motorycling--ATGATT, good quality protective gear w full face helmet, attend motorcycle safety course when starting...

As another poster has stated, i actually feel safer on my moto than my road bike. On my Bavarian Camping Tractor i am traveling at the same speed as traffic; i have escape velocity/power one wrist twist away; i am wearing a metric shit ton of high quality protective gear. i fully recognize that events can conspire against me-a sudden left hand turning auto, the unsecured load coming out the bed of Billy Bob's broke dick pick up truck--so i ride defensively and ATGATT. Same on the road bike--wear bright colors, use a helmet mirror and constantly watch traffic coming up behind me [several times i've had to dive into the ditch] I just *feel* much more vulnerable on my bike going at a slow speed clad in little more than spandex and trust in my fellow travelers.

Everyone is going to assess risk differently. Based on where they are in life. Kids or no kids? My children are grown up; thru college and out in life. Skill level? I've attended two motorcycle safety/skill classes and am looking at a BMW off-road school in SC next year. Personal comfort with higher risk endeavors? I spent my life jumping out of airplanes in the middle of the night; getting my HMMWV truck blown up, mortared/rocketed, and occasionally shot at in a very personal manner. So my tolerance for risk may not be the same as someone elses. But i do do everything i can--on my road bike and on my moto--to bring that risk level as far back down that ladder as i can

Take Good Care and GL

r

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Steve

I can't remember the exact top 5 causes of accidents on motorbikes but they include; running out of road (braking to late for a corner), being pulled out on (driver not seeing you), rain

I found this list

https://rideapart.com/...nd-how-to-avoid-them

big differences between motorbikes and push bikes is the ability to get out of trouble (make progress), to brake hard, and the fact that on a larger bike e.g. an 800 with or without panniers it is .75-1m wide and with good road positioning there is no reason not to be seen

I am sure there are US equivalents but it is worth reading the police motorcyclists hand book which covers IPSGA (information, position, speed, gear and acceleration) this is the driving system first responders utilise in the UK

Its also worth watching narrated rides by ROSPA gold and IAM riders on youtube

The thing about motorbikes is that is far easier to kill yourself than on a push bike but its also very easy to ride conservatively, maintain your position and be safe.

Edit: i have done weeks of enduro riding with ktm throughout europe and 10 half days of riding under the supervision of a police motorcyclist. The former teaches you about control on loose unstable surfaces the latter so much on positioning, speed, approach and safety it would not be possible to cover.




Rides like these. Narrating and riding under supervision improve awareness

My buddy races motorcycle at whatever the highest level is where they go really fast on some kind of track. (This was before I knew him so details of it are sketchy because I really didn't pay attention). Anyways he always felt safer racing than driving in Chicago because you never know what the asshats are going to do. Sphere I'll check with my wife, but she's always said motorcycles means she'll always have a job and never a peep about bikes (could be they're dead and don't even cross the threshold)

I think the vast majority of motorbike fatalaties are rider induced; speed, inattention, lack of awareness, poor positioning. Obviously if you are dead who's fault it is, is a bit academic, but if you want to avoid being dead - thats quite doable.

The worst possible combination is a 20 something who is not risk adverse jumping on a 200hp 200kg bike.............

Good luck with the "not speed" thing. I've never had much luck keeping it sane and knew the probable outcome was not good, so gave up my sport bike. If you find yourself in that mindset, please take it to a track. You'll be much safer winging it out on a track with plenty of runout, walls far off the racing surface and no car/trucks pulling out in front of you.

I rode a bike while I was a poor undergrad in the late 1990's. Nothing sporty or fast - a crappy old Yamaha 450cc.
Looking back I will not let my kid do the same. Its a miracle I'm still alive.
I laid the bike down twice - once on wet leaves and once on early morning October ice. Fortunately both times at low speeds and got nothing worse than some bruises and mild scrapes.
There were several near misses with cars as well. Any one of them potentially fatal given the speeds involved.

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Remember - It's important to be comfortable in your own skin... because it turns out society frowns on wearing other people's

 
Part of the issue with fatalities is a lot of us start young and dumb. I had my first road motorcycle before I could legally drive it, actually drove it up and down the alley behind our house every chance I got. Got my license when I was 15 and was on the bike that day. Got my first sport bike a year later and proceeded to be a fuckin idiot on it. 170mph is scary AF and leaves no room for error, only got that dumb once but did plenty of stupid stuff on that bike.

I was lucky, I didn't crash a bike until I was 26 and had moved on to a muscle cruiser. Came in to a corner too hot and then discovered the gravel and sand all over the apex of the corner, front end washed out and I hit the deck low side. Had all my gear on so I was fine, but even with a full face helmet, and the fact I was down to less than 30mph when I hit, I still had a headache for 3 days. Makes you really wonder about the morons who ride without a helmet.

As Sphere noted, you are invisible, people are actively trying to kill you, act accordingly. I change lane position often depending on the circumstance both to give myself room and to be seen. I ride a lot of country roads with 2 way stops. I always slow, cover the brakes and attempt to make eye contact with the driver at the stop sign, even if I do make contact I try to have an escape plan if they pull out. If there is another car on the road I get close to their back end for intersections, drivers are going to see the car then pull out in front of the motorcycle behind it, I get close so they don't have time to pull out in front of me. Loud pipes have saved me a few times from people trying to merge into me. When I am stopped I stop to one side of the lane and watch my mirror, I am always ready to gun it past the car in front of me if the car coming up behind is not slowing down enough. You can't control everything, but there is a lot you can do to make things safer. Also dress for the slide, not for the ride. It sucks when it is really hot out, but road rash sucks worse.

And yes, the feeling of the wind in your face on a nice 70 degree afternoon in the mountains is worth it.

Thanks a lot Andrew, that's very helpful. That RideApart article is actually what helped push me in the direction that I'm in now, which is thinking that "maybe" the risks and avoidance techniques aren't worlds apart from what I'm used to on my bike. I'll check out those types of videos you mentioned.

I sold my motorcycle a few years ago when we started having children and I think it's much more dangerous than a road bike. If you're not commuting and riding in rural areas you'll be much safer. In my opinion it's all the texting and driving that has made the roads so dangerous.

I do have young kids and that's the primary concern. However, I don't work anymore so I'd have the luxury of going out in the middle of the day and staying on totally rural roads, so it seems to me like that would be somewhat mitigating.

I give up work in May, have a 1 and a 3 year old and just bought a GS

I probably have some of the best riding in the world outside my front door (alpes maritime)

I think with the exception of a catastrophic equipment failure. Almost every single other accident - even being rear ended - are MOSTLY avoidable

There is definitely no excuse for not being able to make a corner, being unaware of slippery conditions, being taken out by a car pulling out as all of those things are forseeable

In fact the police, rospa and IAM all in part measure the ability of a rider by their ability to make progress on the basis that you are moving past hazards and leaving them behind you

I would thoroughly reccomend the book and reading that and having read it make a determination about how much you can improve your own safety by riding conservatively

Here's a good site with tons of info and stats on motorcycles:

http://www.iihs.org/...ityfacts/motorcycles

Looks like the majority of fatalities were sport/supersport bikes, 1000 cc or less with riders 30 or under (shocking, I know).

I didn't realize it, but I live in one of only 3 states with no helmet law whatsoever (IL, IA, and NH) - all other states either have universal or partial helmet laws. The stats speak for themselves - helmets save lives. I never ride without gearing up - Steve Hawley said it before - ATGATT. Too hot to wear my jacket? Bike is staying in the garage. Also - I never ride if I don't have the energy to be alert and focused. Tired from a morning long run followed by a couple hours of work in the yard? Sorry, bike stays in the garage.

If you get clearance from the 'home office' and decide to take the plunge, post pics of your ride!

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"The will to win means nothing without the will to prepare" - Juma Ikangaa

http://www.litespeed.com

In Colorado, there were 105 motorcycle deaths compare to a average of 10 per year for bicycle deaths. I don't have any stats on number of motorcycles, miles driven versus a cyclists.

My bias is I'll ride on a motocross track any day but I would never ride a motorcycle on the road in Colorado.

When I'm on my motorcycle I'm going about the same speed as surrounding traffic. Can't say that on a bike. Plus I've got a bike bike (Harley touring model) so I'm not going to get my leg clipped by a passing car either.

I feel much safer on my Harley than on my Titanflex (not that I've been on that in the last 3 or 4 years....).

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I miss YaHey