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Race Wheel Questions
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I currently race mostly Olympic and sprints on local courses that are rolling to hilly and trying to decide if it makes sense to upgrade race wheels. I currently race on a pair of older Zipp 404s with the aluminum track brake surface (I am guessing they are both circa 2010-2011 - got rear here on ST, bought front locally). My questions:

What, if any, is the likely ultimate performance difference over a 40k bike for wheels with a carbon brake surface vs aluminum track? Assume a current bike split in the 1:05-1:07 range depending on the course. I race pretty often once the season starts and am really not interested in the hassle of also changing brake pads every time I put on race wheels unless there is a clear performance advantage. Relatedly, do any companies even make race wheels with an aluminum track anymore?

What, if any, is the ultimate performance difference between my old Zipp 404s and a new/newer wheel in the same class over the same 40K bike? I cannot afford to drop 2k for new wheels (also looking to get a new bike) so a new pair of 404s is out. Brands I am thinking of are Flo 30/60s, Hed 3s, Boyd or maybe a newer used set of Zipps assuming there would be a noticeable performance advantage. If I get something I would like it to be light, durable and affordable (I know, pick 2).

Thanks in advance.
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Re: Race Wheel Questions [jsmith] [ In reply to ]
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jsmith wrote:
do any companies even make race wheels with an aluminum track anymore?
.

Yes. All the varieties of HED Jet's have aluminum brake tracks. Half of Flo's are aluminum. Zipp still makes the Zipp 60 with an aluminum track. Also I believe Swiss side hadron are aluminum as well. There may be others that are currently in production as well.

As for time saved between aluminum and carbon, that question can be a bit loaded. Look at HEDs wind tunnel data comparing the Jet and Stinger wheels and Flo's comparing their own carbon and aluminum. Overall there is not a big difference in watts saved. Carbon will be lighter, but consensus is generally that it's not enough to make a large difference.

However the bigger question for you shouldn't be aluminum vs carbon, it should be your current wheels vs newer tech. The wheels you have are pre-fire crest so the don't have the full toroidal shape and wider rim that many newer rave wheels (aluminum or carbon) have.

Matt
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Re: Race Wheel Questions [jsmith] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe 30 seconds.
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Re: Race Wheel Questions [Pun_Times] [ In reply to ]
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Pun_Times wrote:
don't have the full toroidal shape and wider rim that many newer race wheels (aluminum or carbon) have.

Technically speaking I think the toroidal shape is nearly gone now. The "toroidal" part is the bulging middle section in the 3rd wheel. Newer wheels (leftmost) don't really have that bulge anymore because the whole thing is wide - very close to a straight "U" profile. I think there's still a subtle toroidal bulge, though, at least in Flo, Zipp, and HED wheels (and maybe others).


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Re: Race Wheel Questions [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]
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jimatbeyond wrote:
Maybe 30 seconds.

I know you are well versed in all of this stuff, but it seems the charts on the FLO Aero Page (at the bottom, http://flocycling.com/aero.php) are showing more like ~7secs over 40k?

Or has the difference between the Zipp aluminum brake track wheels and the Zipp NSW or FireCrest just improved that much more as where the FLO wheels designed closer together in terms of time frame that the time savings is not as substantial?

-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
Partnered with: Zoot Sports | Precision Fuel &Hydration | ISM
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Re: Race Wheel Questions [jsmith] [ In reply to ]
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jsmith wrote:
I currently race mostly Olympic and sprints on local courses that are rolling to hilly and trying to decide if it makes sense to upgrade race wheels. I currently race on a pair of older Zipp 404s with the aluminum track brake surface (I am guessing they are both circa 2010-2011 - got rear here on ST, bought front locally). My questions:

What, if any, is the likely ultimate performance difference over a 40k bike for wheels with a carbon brake surface vs aluminum track? Assume a current bike split in the 1:05-1:07 range depending on the course. I race pretty often once the season starts and am really not interested in the hassle of also changing brake pads every time I put on race wheels unless there is a clear performance advantage. Relatedly, do any companies even make race wheels with an aluminum track anymore?

What, if any, is the ultimate performance difference between my old Zipp 404s and a new/newer wheel in the same class over the same 40K bike? I cannot afford to drop 2k for new wheels (also looking to get a new bike) so a new pair of 404s is out. Brands I am thinking of are Flo 30/60s, Hed 3s, Boyd or maybe a newer used set of Zipps assuming there would be a noticeable performance advantage. If I get something I would like it to be light, durable and affordable (I know, pick 2).

Thanks in advance.
I still use a 2011 circa aluminum brake track Zipp 404 for my front wheel.....Zipp 900 disc on back. If I were you, I would consider still using the front 404 and get a disc for the rear. You don't say what your budget is, but if a disc is out of question, consider other options like a new aero helmet, wetsuit, etc.
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Re: Race Wheel Questions [jsmith] [ In reply to ]
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There's a used Renn disc in the classifieds at a very attractive price:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...M_freehub._P6278048/

I have a Renn disc and really like it--definitely improved my speed on the bike, and it feels as though I can take corners tighter.

No coasting in running and no crying in baseball
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Re: Race Wheel Questions [@BW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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@BW_Tri wrote:
jimatbeyond wrote:
Maybe 30 seconds.


I know you are well versed in all of this stuff, but it seems the charts on the FLO Aero Page (at the bottom, http://flocycling.com/aero.php) are showing more like ~7secs over 40k?

Or has the difference between the Zipp aluminum brake track wheels and the Zipp NSW or FireCrest just improved that much more as where the FLO wheels designed closer together in terms of time frame that the time savings is not as substantial?

Our recent wheel line, both the Carbon Clincher model wheels and the Aluminum + Carbon wheels were designed at the exact same time. All of the tech in our CC line is also in our A+C line. The reason there is a small difference in time between our CC and A+C wheels aerodynamically is because we have full control of the shape of the brake tracks on the CC model wheels, but lose a little bit of control because of the carbon/aluminum interface. All of that said, the wheels are very close aerodynamically.

My understanding of why there is a larger difference between Zipp's latest CC wheels and their A+C wheels is because all of their latest design tech has gone into their latest CC line of wheels but the A+C wheels are based on older tech.

I hope that helps,


Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling
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Re: Race Wheel Questions [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks to all for their replies. It sounds like the difference between the new/old and aluminum/carbon track is truly negligible for the vast majority of us, particularly those racing short course. Trying to win my AG in local races, 1-2 minutes over 40k would huge and often a difference maker between places 1-3. That said, 30 seconds, while obviously helpful and possibly decisive in some races, makes it a lot hard to justify a sizeable cost for a relatively fragile piece of equipment.

For now I guess I will stick with my old zipps and wait until I crack another one and upgrade again them. Now I just need to get a new bike, which I am sure will give me those 1-2 minutes. Not to hijack my own thread but I have been waiting months for Cervelo to get my local shop a 58' P2 to test ride - crazy!!!
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Re: Race Wheel Questions [jsmith] [ In reply to ]
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jsmith wrote:
Thanks to all for their replies. It sounds like the difference between the new/old and aluminum/carbon track is truly negligible for the vast majority of us, particularly those racing short course. Trying to win my AG in local races, 1-2 minutes over 40k would huge and often a difference maker between places 1-3. That said, 30 seconds, while obviously helpful and possibly decisive in some races, makes it a lot hard to justify a sizeable cost for a relatively fragile piece of equipment.

For now I guess I will stick with my old zipps and wait until I crack another one and upgrade again them. Now I just need to get a new bike, which I am sure will give me those 1-2 minutes. Not to hijack my own thread but I have been waiting months for Cervelo to get my local shop a 58' P2 to test ride - crazy!!!

If you have a goal of winning your age group and improve your times by 60-120 seconds, a good used/new rear disc should go a long way helping you reach/exceed that goal, especially when you get your new P2.
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