Pix or it didn't happen.

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DFL > DNF > DNS

I would film it, but I'm afraid it's a sorry enough spectacle to go viral.

My turns have a bit of a half-twist so that my feet hit the wall sideways. And, I push off like that and only twist a bit more as I near the surface and start my stroke. It might not be the most optimal, but it is very comfortable to me and does not use a lot of energy. You might want to try lessening your twist, but I wouldn't hold it against you if you don't get to the point where you push off the wall completely on your back.

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Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.

I am bringing a video camera next time I come to swim practice... :)

The current rage with elite swimmers seems to be to hit the wall and push off with the toes facing up (i.e. on your back) but unless you are aiming for an Olympic trials cut, I think the old school technique of adding a slight twist and hitting the wall with your feet pretty much parallel to the bottom (i.e. a 90 degree twist rather than the 180/on our stomach twist you seem to be doing) is easier to master. The turn, push and glide need to be looked at as one thing and a 90 degree twist makes it much easier to get a good push off while not slowing things down by doing the full rotation inside your flip or killing yourself torquing a full twist during the push off. You start the push off on your side then do the final rotation onto your stomach as you push off and glide. Actually if you are not doing super dolphin kicks for several meters, you might not get totally flat on your stomach until you're well into your first stroke out of the turn as you should be doing your first pull with your lower arm so you really don't need to get flat only to roll your shoulder again. So, you are on the right track, just back off the twisting during the flip a bit.

At what point does the kick enter the equation

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

Noofus, it will be a while before I bring this show to class. I already feel like I'm getting the "oh, good lord" face from the parents of the 8-year-olds in the other lanes.

Usually as soon as I remember to, which is right about when the other option is drowning.

Just start by flipping at the wall and ending up in a streamlined on-your-back position, face-up. Then you can rotate over to freestyle. It'll be a little clunky at first with the rollover, but it'll speed up with time, and soon you'll be able to rollover even before you end up faceup.

Just want you to know you are not alone. I am an AOS and just returned from the pool this afternoon after working on my version of a flip turn which is in the "...strange spastic acrobatic thing" category. Fortunately I was the only one in the pool so no-one had to witness these strange contortions in the water. I will keep trying.

I'm learning too. I usually don't have a problem unless I push off too deep. My underwaters (dolphins) aren't good enough to get me to the surface quick enough...it gets comical if this happens.

For you, I would suggest practicing pushoffs on your back just to work on the rotation part.

Any ideas on when this "current rage" started??? I think *most* swimmers over age 30, or 35 at the most, were taught to flip with the half twist. All of a sudden it seems that you have to come off on your back but I don't see why this would necessarily be any faster than our old school turns.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

My various coaches always emphasized that we should flip on our back and twist after pushing off. I started swimming with a club in '85.

Of course, I still developed the twist in mid flip thing.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Really??? I can't recall any actual wording but just remember a couple of experienced swimmers showing me how to do it, and can't recall if I started out "doing the twist" from the beginning or added it later. In any case, since so many, many swimmers have done so many turns this way, it can't be that bad. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I swam as a kid and really thought it was necessary to violently "somersault", to flip.

Last year, I retaught myself via youtube. The two key tips I picked up were:

* Tuck your head/chin down. Your body will follow your head (down).
* As your legs start to come around, "throw water over your head" with your hands. That completes the flip.

Using these two pointers, I've found flip-turns are simple/automatic, and don't require any real effort.

I found this video, and watched it over (and over and over). And then a few times again... :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNeU1DLfklY

Just Google swimming flip turn, many videos. I always flip turn.

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Robert Driskell
Certified Master Body Geometry fit Technician
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Bikes Plus Pensacola Florida

I started watching videos on flip turns nearly ten years ago, by then pushing off on your back seemed like the consensus. One instructor (Gary Hall Sr. maybe?) explained that the tightest leg tuck would allow the quickest flip and subsequent pushoff, and that meant no twist.

My flipturn is sloppy at best, but after this discussion I might see if the half twist makes it any easier/smoother/faster.

I can see how doing no twist and pushing off on your back might get your feet around and off the wall a couple hundredths faster. And, a couple hundredths matters in pool races. Add in several meters of dolphin kicks and I have no doubt turns, if you measure flag to flag are way faster now than they were back in the day. But, 99% of that is the dolphin kicking not the foot placement on the wall. In the old school pre dolphin kick days, it was more important to get set up for a good push off and glide. I do think doing the half twist as part of the flip works better for that and that is how 99.99% of adult swimmers are doing their turns (i.e. no 7 meters of dolphin kicking off the wall).

Personally, I think pushing off on your back requires a bit too much coordination to handle the roll during our push/glide plus you can really torque your back if you are not lined up right when you push off. I see it like sitting on your top tube during a decent. Sure, it is slightly faster but the margin for error is smaller so it is a pro move, not meant for amateurs ;-)

I learned to "tumble turn" (what a flip turn was called back then) in 1967. I was 6. They taught us toes up wall plant and that is how I did it though high school. My kids were taught to plant toes sideways in the late 80's so the current rage is simply a return to the old method. I personally flip toes at about 10 or 11 (or 1 or 2) now but that is just me getting old and lazy. If I'm doing an all out 50 or longer I flip toes up.

As for turning, when you push off the wall you go where your arms and head are pointed. If you push off "twisted" you will continue to rotate around.

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

I attended a clinic with Olympian Chloe Sutton earlier this year. She had us do a drill where we flipped on our backs with feet up and legs at 90 deg against the wall and then hold that position for a couple of seconds before pushing off. One of the goals was to get a feel for getting your arms & body better aligned to streamline off the wall.
I started gravitating toward this type of turn over the last couple of years. I was getting off the wall well on my backstroke flip turns, but seemed to often be misaligned as I twisted coming off the wall with my freestyle turns, creating excess drag and killing my momentum. I found that if I delayed twisting coming off the wall then I was maintaining a better streamline and had a smoother transition into my dolphins.
FWIW, when I was an AG swimmer back in the '60's they taught us more of a pike flip turn, where you were to throw your calves over the water against the wall. Now they teach more of tight tuck position, which research shows actually helps you to rotate faster.

Something that helped me was my masters coach showing me how to use my hands. If you push your hands forward while doing the tumble turn, it'll help accelerate you around in a circle. Imagine your palms facing the wall you're about to turn into. Try it.

It seems from all this discussion that feet parallel to the floor (rather than pushing off on my back) makes more sense for me. Thanks for all the advice, particularly about how to use my arms, because I'm still struggling to get them to do what they're supposed to here. Some of this morning's attempts went really well. Others involved using my hand to push off from the bottom of the pool and also getting my foot stuck in the rope line. I take comfort in knowing I am relieving the life guards from boredom.