Huh?

It's just the same as stack and reach for the saddle nose top, s = setback, h = height, l = length, L = quotient h / s ..

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___/\___/\___/\___ the s u r f b o a r d of the K u r p f a l z is the r o a d b i k e .. oSo >>

If you are tall then chances are UCI rules are very restrictive.

I'm 1.83m tall. I can achieve a UCI legal position with nearly 90cm of reach (no exemption necessary).

The constraint these days isn't the UCI, it's the manufacturers who won't make a bike with a normal seat tube angle.

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Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
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I'm having a hard time understanding some of these fits folks are describing. Mine is +26mm on a Fizik Arione and I should probably be a tad further forward.

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

UCI rules only allow me a bog standard road setup with my arms together with riser pads to stop getting too crunched up.
In that position I am nowhere near as fast as I can achieve on a Tri bike.
My fastest position ignoring rules is 75mm in front of the BB for a standard type seat and many many cm in front of maximum reach allowances.

92.5cm is a lot of reach - cool that you are experimenting with this. A normal seat tube angle and being "tall" can get you there while still being uci compliant, though.

I blame the mfrs not the uci.

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Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
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I can ride compliant, just move my seat back and ride the bars high.
But that's not fast.
Simple fact is to TT well I need to be forward and low.
I can use a Adamo type seat set at 50mm behind and noseride, but quickly run into reach limits.
My arms from elbow to fingerstips is 56cm. Measure yours and tell me that it is not a penalty.
The reach rules should be calculated to the froward edge of the elbow pads or simply abolished.

If I put clip-ons on my standard setup roadbike, I have already exceeded reach rules without taking exception.
Why does somebody with arms 15cm shorter than mine get only 5cm less?
As well as the option to move the seat forward?

why anyone prefers to ride the nose is odd to me. some folks, i guess, just have an amor de bajo:


http://biketechreview.com/...our-de-aquotlowaquot



I just measured mine and it is close to yours, but you might have long phalanges, so from a practical perspective I reckon it's tough to say how this really impacts sitting on a bike and going fast. I think it's great that folks have had access to some great tools these past couple decades with which we can explore things when it comes to going fast on a bike:

http://biketechreview.com/.../50-faster-is-faster

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Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
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Longer forearms usually goes with longer lower leg.
Great for running, not so great for cycling as it puts your knees on your chest and makes it hard to make power in an aero setup.
Types like me NEED to go forward to be aero and make power.
Simple fact is, the further forward I go, the faster I go.
Why should I be penalised for my morphology?
Small people can run superman positions and be within the rules.
I'm not even allowed a decent one.

Now lets take your 25cm thing.
My standard road position is 12cm behind.
My best tt position is 7.5cm in front.
That's not dicking around with a couple of cm there.

But the whole rotate around the BB is only a little bit right anyways.
The pelvis tends to stay at the seat angle so therefore it is an entirely different position.
As somebody who has come from an open torso running background, I work better in something closer to that than a boardman knees on chest position.

As I transition to a road racer, I am changing, I don't really run anymore and sit much father back than when I first give up tri's. But as a tri guy, forward was simply faster and I still am now but not to the same extent.

If forward is not faster for a large chunk of riders, then why do a large percentage of the pro peleton sit on the tips of their seat?
Why do they put sandpaper on their seats and suffer uncomfotable positions if they do not gain from it?
Why did nearly every single rider take exception for seat forward?

Why did the UCI finally relent and let track riders go to no setback?
Ride whatever suits you, but I am Dans age and we found our way forward not through being told to go forward, but from our bodies saying give it a go, and we found it worked.

What I and others have foundis that there is no inbetween.
You are either forward or back.
No mans land in between just doesn't work.
If all you have experimented with is a few cm, then you haven't tried a proper forward setup and are probably not in a position to comment apart to confirm your bias.

Also there's been seemingly (according to just my perception) much less of that since the rules were relaxed.

I'm pretty forward, and I find myself doing it on my road bike when I'm under extreme stress (e.g. attacking or closing an attack). And my road bike is a few cm back from my TT bike from bike geometry limitations.

I still haven't figured out my track bike. It's hard with track, because BikeTechReview's assertion is correct with respect to most track bike manufacturers - they mostly stick with "traditional" track geometry that ignores the past 20 years. It seems you have to spring for a high-end frame designed around pursuit (e.g. Cervelo T4) to reach a more forward position.

I'm at about 3cm and I wouldn't mind pushing further forward...

seems like part of the people on here want to go backwards to get faster and part of the people want to go forwards to get faster.

There are no guarantees in cycling fit / aerodynamics.

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

My son raced USAC AG Nats last year in Louisville in the TT. On a first gen Trek SC with stock saddle I could only get the nose of the saddle as far back as even with the BB. That is with the saddle mount flipped on top of the seat post to the more slack angle. Normally saddle tip is forward of the BB. I borrowed a noseless saddle brand to use for just the one race and obtained the 5cm setback.
UCI allows one morphological exception in regards to the 5cm saddle setback OR the 75cm from BB to end of bar end shifter arc. Saddle may be even with BB OR the bar ends can be out as far as 80cm (85cm for very tall riders) but not both.



**All riders are entitled to one morphological exception, either handlebar position or saddle position. A saddle morphological exception means the saddle can be as far forward as even with the vertical through the bottom bracket. A handlebar morphological exception means the handlebars can be 80 cm from the vertical through the bottom bracket, or 85 cm in the case of a rider 190cm or taller. No rider can take both morphological exceptions.

i don't think that you are penalized. even you can have a long reach and still be within the rules.

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Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
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what was your saddle height for both of those positions?


lots of possible reasons. a good general answer from me would be that they aren't sitting on their bikes correctly...haha. too low bars or too high saddle would be spots i'd start looking at.


sounds like you made up your mind a couple decades or more ago...fwiw, i've mapped out supply and demand for myself over a design space range of probably 15cm in each of reach/drop/setback over the years using a variety of tools at my disposal (frontal area, wind tunnel, field testing by power meter, humanipers, steep hills and a scale, shrugging in mirrors, math models to determine fast bike geometry, etc...). after all of that work on myself and others, i'd encourage folks to experiment and not blame governing bodies.

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Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
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Saddle height is only 82.5cm and non critical at 12cm behind, and up around 86-87cm depending on how far forward but super critical, drop it 3mm and my knees will explode after a few KM.
Those numbers are for conventional seats.
Cleats are full back in road bike guise, cleats far forward in TT guise which is part of the seat height difference.
Knees are under a lot of stress forward as the bum muscles kick in early and load up the joint before it starts to open.
I am not rotating around the BB, the relative pelvis tilt is different, the relative timing of firing of muscles is different and all joint angles are different, especially the leg is much straighter.
Riding forward is almost a different sport to riding conventional road.

87 cm is a high saddle height.

Yes, Darryl, if you bend over at the waist more (decrease femur/pelvis angle) while still producing the same power, odds are you will be faster.

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Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
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But I cannot produce the same power with a tighter femur angle, and most pro's can't either.
That is the crux of the whole problem.

got it. with your forward/tighter position you can't produce the same power.

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Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
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7 cm behind BB right now. My inseam is long 91.5 cm. Used to have the saddle 5 cm behind BB and my knees were just about hitting the elbows! Fitter moved the saddle back another 2 cm so I'm not so scrunched up. I know what you are thinking. Front end is already pretty far forward for my reach. I have weird physiology. Maybe I'll ask slowman to get a crack at this oddball fit. Seat to pad drop is just 7 cm and I can just about see up the road. Another 1 cm lower is too uncomfortable.

Short roadie, when doing UCI races I have to take the exemption 0cm setback on the TT bike, 3cm on road bike.

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Jordan Oroshiba --- Roadie invading Triathlete space for knowledge access

How is it you are allowed 3cm in road bike trim? Did you mean 5?
Why do you have to take exemption on the TT? You mean you take it because you can.

I'm not sure that the saddle setback rule applies to non TT events, if it is it is completely unenforced. Here are measurements of Cavendish's bike showing 4cm of setback (http://www.cyclingnews.com/...lized-s-works-venge/). I literally have my saddle as far back as allowable on the rails and it is at 3cm on my road bike.

By have to I mean I would not have an aero position without it, or would totally wreck my back and put out far less power.

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Jordan Oroshiba --- Roadie invading Triathlete space for knowledge access