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Re: To the 15% of you who think flip turns are detrimental to tri training (poll) [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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Ahh yea, pool swimmers do. Most if not all swimmers here regularly do ocean swims. All triathletes mostly do ocean swims. I live in the caribbean. The ocean is beautiful. There are no winters. I swim with swimmers and dont do flip turns. I probably wont be able to keep up with them in the pool because of the flip turns, but I do in the ocean.

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Swim with swimmers, bike with cyclists, run with runners. Train with those who are hard to keep up with. Soon you will be hard to keep up with.
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Re: To the 15% of you who think flip turns are detrimental to tri training (poll) [Tri297] [ In reply to ]
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Tri297 wrote:
Ahh yea, pool swimmers do. Most if not all swimmers here regularly do ocean swims. All triathletes mostly do ocean swims. I live in the caribbean. The ocean is beautiful. There are no winters. I swim with swimmers and dont do flip turns. I probably wont be able to keep up with them in the pool because of the flip turns, but I do in the ocean.


I live in Southern California. The ocean here is beautiful as well if not a bit colder. I pool swim twice a week, ocean swim once a week from March through November. Most every tri I do is an ocean swim with surf entries. Everyone I swim with, whether they call themselves (??) "pool swimmers" or "ocean swimmers", flip turn in the pool (except one guy who cannot medically). I've been in the pool with pro triathletes. They flip turn. I've trained in the pool with LD open water swimmers. They flip turn. So I really don't have a clue why you'd differentiate between "pool" swimmers and "ocean" swimmers with regard to flip turns.

At any rate, your whole post was about "you are cheating yourself by flip turning" and was about pool swimming. The premise is a crock. And is not how swimmers think (and which was pithily summed up in the first two words of this entire thread)
Last edited by: ChrisM: Apr 26, 17 13:05
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Re: To the 15% of you who think flip turns are detrimental to tri training (poll) [spookini] [ In reply to ]
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I'm now two sessions deep in learning to do flip turns. Figured I'd share my experience thus far to help those on the fence about giving it a go. I don't care whether you do or do not - just sharing my experience here.

So here's some background info. Swam as a kid, but nothing competitive. AOS and definately not a fish. Never bothered with flip turns, but after reading through this thread decided no time like the present to start.

First sessions last week I spent the entire hour trying to get comfortable with the flip turn. Started off with getting the "feel" for pushing off the wall trying to simulate the second part of the flip turn (seated position looking up, streamline, push while exhaling). Did this in the shallow end. It took a while to get it right - or at least closer to right. Drove myself down raking my fingers along the bottom a few times. Not fun, but I pressed on. A kind lady teaching some kid to swim took pity on me and started giving me pointers here and there. I'll gladly take any advice I can get! After pushing off the wall a few more times she said I should swim away from the wall a few stroke then practice somersaulting. Ok fine. Thanks again! Did that for a bit then she told me to do the swim-somersault thing with a bit more speed and eventually I'd find myself swimming back to the wall. It took a few more attempts, but eventually I'd swim to the middle and flip around. No wall to hit or push off from so total loss of momentum. Next I was challeneged to swim up to the wall to attempt the flip turn. "Just go for it". Started doing so and completely missed it more times than I can count. Used the T to gauge distance, but the whole movement was still unnatural so I did all sorts of weird flip turn things. Must have looked comical, but whatever I'm learning. Drove myself back down to the bottom again. Ouch. Decided I should probably get at least a few laps in so I proceeded to make my way up and down the lane attempting flip turns maybe every other length at first then forgoing open turns altogether. The kind lady had left at this point (never got to thank her) so I was back to figuring it out based on feel alone. Made it up and down the pool making a few somewhat decent flip turns and missing the wall on many more.

Two days later I'm back at the pool. Decided I'd flip turn during the warm up. Start swimming along getting all nervous as I approach the wall while trying to not look up. I'm thinking to myself "just tuck after you pass the T". Spot the T, try to sneak a last breath, and flip. Ended up in the other lane. Ok, that sucked. Try again at the other end. Come to the wall and sure enough it worked! Wasn't pretty, but was able to flip turn and continue swimming along. Kept at it during the warm up. Confidence starting to build as I continue to warm up. Maybe 50/50 with "good"/"botched" flip turns. Figured I'd swim the workout distance as planned, but forgo any speedy laps in favor of continuing to practice flip turns. Some turns had me gasping for air as I surfaced while other attempts just worked (no hypoxia feeling, staying in lane). Improved as the workout went along. Maybe 60/40 or 70/30 at best, but stuck with it the entire workout.

The movement still feels odd, but less so than the first few attempts. Did not bash feet on pool deck once in either session. I'll keep at it. Long way to go before I get it right, but I'm no longer anxious about attempting the flip turn. Worst case outcome: I botch the flip turn, lose momentum, or feel like I need air, recover then keep swimming. Best case: I've learned to flip turn.

Tl;dr --> AOS swimmer attempts to learn flip turns. One session spent just practicing the motions and getting some feel for it. Second session saw flip turns incorporated into swim workout. Many missed attempts and some good ones too. No feet bashed on deck. Improving. Will continue to practice flip turns.
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Re: To the 15% of you who think flip turns are detrimental to tri training (poll) [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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The post was about whether flip turns are detrimental to tri training or not. I think I concluded in my first post that flip turns themselves were not detrimental but that pushing off the wall could be, if you want to be super specific about distances swum. Allthough I accepted that, as Jason mentioned, perhaps this was a bit overthought, I dont think it was complete nonsense. It could be like you say "not how swimmers think", but thats about it.

You claim my sig is ironic and that I must not swim with swimmers because all swimmers flip turn, however I did not say that they dont flip turn. I said that I dont flip turn, and that i dont see how my sig is ironic. I do swim with swimmers. I swim with them in the ocean.

I guess what you are saying is that I am not a swimmer. And you are right. I'm a triathlete, and this is slowtwitch. I think im in the right place here. I also ride bikes and run.

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Swim with swimmers, bike with cyclists, run with runners. Train with those who are hard to keep up with. Soon you will be hard to keep up with.
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Re: To the 15% of you who think flip turns are detrimental to tri training (poll) [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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1000%

I ride w cyclists but dont wear biking shorts.. no chamois makes me tougher. Esp on long rides and who needs clip in shoes?? But I ride w cyclists

I run with runners and I want to get super fast but no way I am doing track workouts! Running in circles is crazy. But I run with runners.

Someday.. Ill be fast.

right?
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Re: To the 15% of you who think flip turns are detrimental to tri training (poll) [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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I like flip turns, but keep ending up in a different lane. It would work for snake swims if I could predict which lane I'm headed for.
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Re: To the 15% of you who think flip turns are detrimental to tri training (poll) [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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To you and Jason... I love you guys.

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
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Re: To the 15% of you who think flip turns are detrimental to tri training (poll) [SallyShortyPnts] [ In reply to ]
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This might get lost in the bowels of the forum here but I've got a great "story time" tale about pros and flip turns and 50s for time.

This is 2009 and I'm waiting for Dave Scott's group to finish up practice (i preferred to roll solo). There's 6 people in every lane and about a third of the pool has it's professional license for triathlon. I've been watching and noticed that in the second to fastest lane my buddy Mike is going about 3rd or 4th and just biding his time or being a slacker. Dave calls out "50 for time" to cap off the session and they all get up to do a meager dive from the deck into a 4 foot pool. The other guys that hop up to toe the line with Mike are always first group out of the water at an IM and several IM titles shared amongst them. At max they are 48min guys. Dave sends them off and Mike crushes them by at least 2 seconds. Mike works 50 hour weeks as an IT professional and he don't TRI, he don't run, he don't bike (and he barely swam at that point either).... but Mikey swam D1.

It was quite an entertaining spanking to watch.

FWIW he's been training 3-4x days a week last few months and popped off a 49 and a 22 at masters meet recently. Super stoked for him!

Perhaps the lesson here is... don't challenge the old (swimming) codger to a duel! Even if they are horribly out of shape (and the distance is less than a 200) ;)

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
Last edited by: MarkyV: Apr 26, 17 19:02
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Re: To the 15% of you who think flip turns are detrimental to tri training (poll) [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
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We've got a guy like that in our club. Distance guy at university, slacker in practice. Works as an engineer, brand new baby, comes to practice 2-3x per week. I think he's 30, maybe 29. Iat our long course meet in march he crushed a 57.x 100 free long course.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: To the 15% of you who think flip turns are detrimental to tri training (poll) [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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i love watching (tri) fit people on here, over the years, bitch about getting their ass kicked by some fat guy in the pool. But hey, even fit tri folk that are also fast swimmers get their asses kicked too! It's one thing to be a 48min IM guy or even first pack ITU guy... it's another ball of wax to have swam D1.

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
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Re: To the 15% of you who think flip turns are detrimental to tri training (poll) [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
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Especially if you made cuts for NCAA D1 champs.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: To the 15% of you who think flip turns are detrimental to tri training (poll) [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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he did :)

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
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Re: To the 15% of you who think flip turns are detrimental to tri training (poll) [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
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Spend enough time at probably ANY Masters swim team and you will eventually be "served" by some waddling old fatty who swam D1.

My personal come-uppance was from a lady in the 70-74 AG while I hadn't yet turned 40. We were swimming LCM and I literally lost sight of her! I didn't see that coming...

It wasn't as embarrassing as the Canadian wheel maker putting his foot in his mouth when he did not recognize Gary Hall Sr., but it was close.

DFL > DNF > DNS
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Re: To the 15% of you who think flip turns are detrimental to tri training (poll) [xpda] [ In reply to ]
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xpda wrote:
I like flip turns, but keep ending up in a different lane. It would work for snake swims if I could predict which lane I'm headed for.

I am trying to teach myself flip turns, but it is going slowly because I won't do it if I have to share a lane. I figure no one deserves to have me swim into them.

I have been swimming since before I can remember, but it was mostly in lakes and never on a swim team, so I never learned how to do them. I have found that they have gotten easier since I learned how to dolphin kick (also something I never had to learn how to do growing up). The main reason I want to learn is that I know I take an extra deep breath during that open turn.
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Re: To the 15% of you who think flip turns are detrimental to tri training (poll) [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
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To you and Jason... I love you guys.

*blushes*

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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