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Re: Montana cyclists "rude" according to state senator [LazyEP] [ In reply to ]
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LazyEP wrote:
Now we have the president of the senate help kill a bill asking for a 3' buffer between cars & bikes.

{Sen. Dee Brown, R-Hungry Horse, who voted against the bill, said there’s not enough room for drivers to give cyclists that much space. “If we look at just the width of most of our roadways, it’s critical (that) 10-foot-wide pickups be able to use the whole lane.”}
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Re: Montana cyclists "rude" according to state senator [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
LazyEP wrote:
Now we have the president of the senate help kill a bill asking for a 3' buffer between cars & bikes.


{Sen. Dee Brown, R-Hungry Horse, who voted against the bill, said there’s not enough room for drivers to give cyclists that much space. “If we look at just the width of most of our roadways, it’s critical (that) 10-foot-wide pickups be able to use the whole lane.”}
So, is he advocating that those vehicles should not pass at all or that they should just roll straight over cyclists if there's no space to go around them?
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Re: Montana cyclists "rude" according to state senator [trail] [ In reply to ]
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I disagree with this line of thinking. Yes, there are bad cyclists. But, as has been pointed out in this thread, it hasn't been shown that their numbers or effect are any larger relative to the bad drivers out there.

And the two are very different. Bad cyclists largely put themselves at risk. Bad drivers put other drivers/cyclists/pedestrians at risk.

In short, I don't think us good cyclists need to go through a lot of hand-wringing about the behavior of all cyclists before we can advocate for reasonable bike laws.



Agreed all around.

I may have been slightly misunderstood.

In some jurisdictions in North America there is starting to be talk of Vulnerable Road User Laws/Legislation - that will swing significant responsibility back to motorists for any altercation/collision between motorists and cyclists (and pedestrians).

Many motorists drive with a completely cavalier attitude, that by their actions/behavior, they seem to care little for the safety of other road users - in particular vulnerable road users such as cyclists and pedestrians. This is born out and supported in decision after decision in the courts, where motorists are released from any responsibility for their actions. Even when there has been a fatality, it's like the motorist has struck a road cone! They are given some minor sentence/fine (a slap on the wrist), and sent back out on the road!

Vulnerable Road User Laws/Legislation will be VERY difficult to pass and implement, but it is the commonsense, rational and right thing to do.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Montana cyclists "rude" according to state senator [MukMuk] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed, here in Calgary the bike couriers really give us a bad reputation. I'm pretty sure that the guys hooting and hollering at you on some country road on the weekend are getting payback for some dick courier move they witnessed during the week.

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Re: Montana cyclists "rude" according to state senator [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:
Even when there has been a fatality, it's like the motorist has struck a road cone! They are given some minor sentence/fine (a slap on the wrist), and sent back out on the road! Vulnerable Road User Laws/Legislation will be VERY difficult to pass and implement, but it is the commonsense, rational and right thing to do.

Contrast that attitude with what happens to someone who is over .08% even if they are driving safely!

There was a huge change in the treatment of driving while under the influence of alcohol, but that was because it was a minority that could be vilified and the victims of drunk driving were from all walks of life. In this case the minority "other" is the cyclist (I mean, riding on the road is insane!) and they get implicitly blamed for the accident, while the poor victim (the motorist who everyone can relate to) has to live with having killed someone. Adding additional penalties would just be silly.
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Re: Montana cyclists "rude" according to state senator [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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Of course there are always differences in this jurisdiction to jurisdiction.\

What happens here in Ontario whenever there is an incident with a cyclist, pedestrian or even another driver and there may be the possibility of fault assigned to a motorist, lawyers working on behalf of the motorist will push and push and push for a "Careless Driving" charge and an admission of guilt/fault or the usual default defense of, "I did not see them" from the motorist. This takes any criminality out of it and it's now really just a misdemeanor. That's why even when their has been a fatality, the motorist will often walk away with some minor charge, perhaps a fine and they are essentially free to go!

And this why here in Ontario legislation will be introduced shortly for more protection of Vulnerable Road Users like cyclists and pedestrians and the responsibility from the outset with rest with motorists to be more vigilant, careful and cautious about those other vulnerable road users. As I previously noted, this WILL NOT be easy. Many motorists seem to have an almost visceral dislike and negative image of cyclists or pedestrians in the first place. It will take large scale social and behavior change similar to what we saw with Drinking & Driving that it is something socially unacceptable. Eventually, with much stiffer charges for motorists and a greater understanding of their responsibility the same social shift will happen fpr cyclists and pedestrians.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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