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Swim: Allergy to Kickboarding? - we got it all wrong
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Yeah you know it. That kickboard is killing you so stay away from any kind of that business. I've been dunked so many times on a kickboard I lost count.
Yet our club is something like 40% on the board during practice and it's the most obviously deficient part of my swimming. So what's up with that? I sought to unravel the mystery.

That's right I get a kickboard & start kicking until I cry uncle. But as usual with swimming, and just like the pull buoy, the kids got it right and we got it all backwards.

What I find out is kickboarding is about your chest, shoulders and front posture. It's not about kicking. Kicking is part of it course, but the main meal is what's going on up front. Here is the money part of kickboarding, those hydrodynamic gains that have been eluding you as car commuting, desk jockey turned triathlete.

The kickboard is a frontal indicator. If you pinch(crank it) and raise your shoulders, drop your chest and keep your head above water, while breaking the surface kicking, then you are in the zone. This all puts your chest lower, shoulders higher in the water, all great things. And it will make you faster. It takes work out of pool to loosen up the chest.

This body position is so profound and important that one of our best TSUN swimmers does a staggered fly stroke. She can't get both arms around at the same time, while protecting her chest and torso position in the water. So she delays one arm in kind of a stutter step. I was amazed at how fast she actually flys - like it's very fast. But she is doing this to protect her floating shoulder and chest position (without any instruction). Swimmers like me will raise their entire chest to execute fly, killing speed and sapping energy.


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Last edited by: SharkFM: Mar 8, 17 15:10
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Re: Swim: Allergy to Kickboarding? - we got it all wrong [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]
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The only use I have ever found for a pull buoy is to use it instead of a kickboard.
Kickboards just promate bad body position, just like using pull buoys in their intended way.

If you are going to use a kickboard as a kickboard, just pinch the very back of it with thumb and fingertips.
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Re: Swim: Allergy to Kickboarding? - we got it all wrong [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]
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So, does that flyer get DQ'd every time?
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Re: Swim: Allergy to Kickboarding? - we got it all wrong [Rumpled] [ In reply to ]
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Rumpled wrote:
So, does that flyer get DQ'd every time?

I asked the coach, DQ'd initially but then overturned at the last meet. Apparently there is interpretation that the feet and arms can be separated positionally +/- but must move in unison.
She has AA fly times, AAA FS being a 4:50 on 400M.

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Re: Swim: Allergy to Kickboarding? - we got it all wrong [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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lyrrad wrote:
The only use I have ever found for a pull buoy is to use it instead of a kickboard.
Kickboards just promote bad body position, just like using pull buoys in their intended way.

If your spine is "fused" yes a kickboard will cause you to drop your lumbar and you can certainly get that bad pos'n feeling.

However the goal is to push your sternum or chest to the bottom of the pool, and pull your shoulder blades together. Again work out of the pool to get range and loosen things up.

So my point - it's all in how the board is used. Try it - the goal is to get that chest slammed as low as possible and get the shoulder as high as possible.

It's the same thing for hull design, which is essentially what we are trying to achieve. Dropped chest and then to raise everything else.

Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
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Re: Swim: Allergy to Kickboarding? - we got it all wrong [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]
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So you're telling me I've been holding my kickboard wrong my whole life? I grab it at the front, then rest my forearms on the board. It makes doing flipturns a good bit easier and it just more comfortable overall.

Strava
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Re: Swim: Allergy to Kickboarding? - we got it all wrong [gmh39] [ In reply to ]
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gmh39 wrote:
So you're telling me I've been holding my kickboard wrong my whole life? I grab it at the front, then rest my forearms on the board. It makes doing flipturns a good bit easier and it just more comfortable overall.


Nope that is all correct of course. It's not how you hold the board it's what your shoulders & chest section do when using the board as support.

So someone like me with a tight spine and rounded shoulders: it will cause me to be chest high in the water, drop my hips and put pressure on my lower back. Result = slower than.....

But if I can attain a proud shoulder posture, drop my chest to the bottom, peel my shoulders back = instant increase of speed with the board.

We are talking a significant amount of "hull draft", that is the chest is riding nearly 1" deeper in the water. 1" is a lot - because that pushes everything else up due to buoyancy.

Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
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Last edited by: SharkFM: Mar 9, 17 15:52
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Re: Swim: Allergy to Kickboarding? - we got it all wrong [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]
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How do kids figure this shit out?

My daughters are 1 month into their swim lessons (they started from basically zero), and since day one they can kick much better and faster than me. I can swim 1:30/100yd, but it takes me about 2:40 to kick the same distance.
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Re: Swim: Allergy to Kickboarding? - we got it all wrong [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]
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I respectfully disagree. Kicking is all about ankle flexibility. You got to make those feet flap like fins. Mine our drag anchors. Size 14 that I can barely get another 20 degrees past 90. I need that soldier in Papillon to break 'em like he did Steve's. Maybe that was the trick for him escaping the island ;)
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Re: Swim: Allergy to Kickboarding? - we got it all wrong [gmh39] [ In reply to ]
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Am I the only one that was taught to do kick drills on my back, arms extended, and thumbs interlocked? No kickboard.

"...the street finds its own uses for things"
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Re: Swim: Allergy to Kickboarding? - we got it all wrong [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know how much you guys are swimming, and maybe I'm way off, but I don't think the average triathlete spends enough time in the pool to justify ever touching a kickboard.
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Re: Swim: Allergy to Kickboarding? - we got it all wrong [TJ56] [ In reply to ]
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Its a big part of the equation. I can kick 100m repeats in 1:30 with about 75% effort. Flat out its 1:20 these days. My right leg has a 15 degree external rotation so my right ankle had to become super flexible to overcome that.

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
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Re: Swim: Allergy to Kickboarding? - we got it all wrong [commendatore] [ In reply to ]
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Its more about supporting a good body position. Besides I love kicking beside a fellow triathlete who swims slower than I can kick.

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
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Re: Swim: Allergy to Kickboarding? - we got it all wrong [commendatore] [ In reply to ]
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commendatore wrote:
I don't know how much you guys are swimming, and maybe I'm way off, but I don't think the average triathlete spends enough time in the pool to justify ever touching a kickboard.


Uhh...
I was thinking the same thing. I think kicking is just fine and all that, but I'd like to save my legs for the two events to follow. I kick good enough to maintain an efficient position for distance swimming, any more is not a good investment in my pool time. Moreover, when a wetsuit enters the picture... well you know. (I LOVE tris that are too warm for a wetsuit! really, I do)

I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________
Last edited by: manofthewoods: Mar 9, 17 23:07
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Re: Swim: Allergy to Kickboarding? - we got it all wrong [guscrown] [ In reply to ]
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guscrown wrote:
How do kids figure this shit out?

My daughters are 1 month into their swim lessons (they started from basically zero), and since day one they can kick much better and faster than me. I can swim 1:30/100yd, but it takes me about 2:40 to kick the same distance.

It's called "natural talent", which in this case means your girls have naturally flexible ankles, knees, hips, etc, such that they caught on to kicking very quickly. IME, good kickers are like that, i.e. it is an "either you have it or you don't' sort of thing. Generally speaking, most girls are more flexible than guys, and hence can usually kick faster. Of course, the true elite men and women can kick very fast; there's a youtube video showing Matt Grevers and Ricky Berens kicking 100s (scy) leaving on 1:15, and coming in around 1:05. Then, for the last repeat after maybe 45 sec rest, Grevers went 54 and Berens 56. This is Oly level kicking for 100/200 swimmers. OTOH, lots of very good to great D swimmers can't kick anywhere close to that fast. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Swim: Allergy to Kickboarding? - we got it all wrong [realAB] [ In reply to ]
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realAB wrote:
Its more about supporting a good body position. Besides I love kicking beside a fellow triathlete who swims slower than I can kick.

I've been on the other side of that. Swimming with a few other teachers/ coaches in the school pool before the kids' practice. I was doing hard 100s and this kid hops in to warm up and zooms past me on the kick board.

He was a state champ that year, which makes it a little less painful, but still...

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: Swim: Allergy to Kickboarding? - we got it all wrong [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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Few more notes on the kickboarding

-proper shoulder & body positioning gets the feet to catch air. I feel I have a strong kick but if my feet are too low it's like trying to move in thick gear oil.
-I can hold this body position and kick full out for 25M. Did some timed runs @ 25-30s. Roughly 50% faster than I used to be!

Somebody posted this video below on another swim forum. It's dryland training for the shoulder posture that the kickboard develops and requires. Ironic that they are using kickboards to box at.


<

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Re: Swim: Allergy to Kickboarding? - we got it all wrong [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]
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Cool drill - even better that it is our local pool!

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: Swim: Allergy to Kickboarding? - we got it all wrong [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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MI_Mumps wrote:
Cool drill - even better that it is our local pool!


I don't see that that drill has any value at all b/c a good swimmer does not pull like the guy was in the dry-land drill. When he got in and started swimming, his arms were going much more straight out before entering the water and starting the pull, vs in the drill he was going almost straight down which would start the pull way too early. If that swimmer had really used the drill form, he'd have taken twice as many strokes per length and gone consid slower. Bad drill IMO.

Also, to the OP: is "kickboarding" really a word in Canada??? I've never heard anyone other than you use this term. All the swimmers and coaches I've been around refer to this activity as "kicking with the board", or "kicking with the kickboard". RealAB was a World Cup swimmer back in the late 90s/early 00s but I've never heard him use the term "kickboarding" but rather he just says "kicking".


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Last edited by: ericmulk: Mar 13, 17 19:07
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Re: Swim: Allergy to Kickboarding? - we got it all wrong [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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BTW my kid kicked 200m in 4:13 the other day :)

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
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Re: Swim: Allergy to Kickboarding? - we got it all wrong [realAB] [ In reply to ]
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realAB wrote:
BTW my kid kicked 200m in 4:13 the other day :)


That's kicking it. You know you need good overall body shape or positioning in addition to quick cycling or we could call it cadence.

OK Let me see that is 253 seconds

I did sub 30 secs for 25M and 1min on 50M, forced & flat out. So delusion-ally extrapolated 4 minutes gets me 200M as well ;). And mind you I would call that "water-boarding" because it would be not only impossible (for me), but also pure torture :P

I said to my kids that short stroke, high cadence is the way to go. And I think my legs are flying, but they said I look sooo slow. Delusional.

Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com
Last edited by: SharkFM: Apr 5, 17 22:33
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Re: Swim: Allergy to Kickboarding? - we got it all wrong [realAB] [ In reply to ]
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realAB wrote:
BTW my kid kicked 200m in 4:13 the other day :)

He is indeed a "chip off the old block." I fully expect to read about him in the Canadian Oly Trials in 2024 and/or 2028. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Swim: Allergy to Kickboarding? - we got it all wrong [TJ56] [ In reply to ]
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TJ56 wrote:
I respectfully disagree. Kicking is all about ankle flexibility. You got to make those feet flap like fins. Mine our drag anchors. Size 14 that I can barely get another 20 degrees past 90. I need that soldier in Papillon to break 'em like he did Steve's. Maybe that was the trick for him escaping the island ;)

True that! See my post on ankle flexibility...
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...e%20flexion#p5899352
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