What saddle? You look uncomfortable.

Front 440? Not 404?

I ride a 440 and am curious how much time its 'giving up' compared to other options.

That is definitely a 440 with Zipp ballistic hub, anodized gold from the early 90s.

I have still have the rear too, removed the original and replaced with a studier, more current Zipp hub.

Obviously my position too high, that's the easiest to address right away. Zipp 808, any era would be great.

Btw, I've tried a HED trispoke on this bike and it didn't seem to work so well.

So I am a crap now former triathlete because of not getting the swim down, but can split 4:38 on the bike, and and :52:xx on a good day in a 40k. I am also a cat 1, and like someone else mentioned, it is all about the watts. Aerodynamics is of course important, but if you can't hold a super aero position, then your watts are most likely decreased in the aero position. you put up high watts on the climbs because it is a climb, and is always going to be higher.

I would say a few things:
1)specific intervals at wattage that will approximate to what you want to do for a 20-40k.
2)learn to love the tt position, ride it a lot, climb on it, etc....
3) find a steady hill, and do big gear repeats in the aero position, they suck but it will make you super strong in the position.

And I didn't read every post, but what crank length are you running? That's a whole new ball of wax, but cyclist's don't really go by the 160-65 thinking that is pervasive in triathlon.

Adding on to what others have said:
- TriRig front brake?
- Do a better job of pinning your number.
- Spend more time riding the TT bike.

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-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
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Well, it's not really all about the watts. On a flat course, absolute power combined with an aero position certainly wins the day. But, in general, watts/cda is the most important metric in terms of going fast on a TT/Tri bike.


Why not? Shorter crank length is a function of fit, not power.

I won't debate the crank length thing, but if it was a function of fit, there would be a ton of cyclists who would be racing on short cranks. And there isn't. Cda is great if you can achieve the position and keep it. That was why I was saying to fall in love with your tt bike, and do those big gear intervals in the aero position...

I'd say he is an absolute candidate for going shorter cranks if he is losing that much power in such a high, open position.
Push extensions out as far as allowed and get a split seat and then get lower.

He isn't losing power in the TT position because his cranks are too long.

Watch the videos. My guess is that he learned to pedal while sitting upright and climbing, and everything about his posture and muscle engagement is stuck in this groove. This isn't unusual. He's got some unlearning and relearning to do if he wants to get fast and aero.

I also think that "climbing hills in aero" should definitely *not* be done until he has learned to comfortably spin while in a real aero postion (not the position he has now).

I totally agree. OP is moving around a lot in a short time in both videos. I think his discomfort is coming from the saddle and is making it had to hammer the power.

I tend to agree. I often get asked for TT tricks and tips by roadies (since it's an obvious strength of mine), and my reply is:

1) Ride your TT bike.
2) Ride your TT bike
3) Ride your TT bike.

E.g. 2-4 times per week. All year. Not just a few times before every stage race or TT.

Then come talk to me about tips.

I think there is more than practice involved though. Posture and muscle engagement through the pedal stroke are very important. He's learned a way that only works while sitting up, and is not efficient or comfortable when bent over. Unlearning that and relearning a way that works for both is going to take attention, not just time on the TT bike.

Time on the TT bike is the starting point, though. It is the gateway from which all TT performance is born.

And time is the thing most lacking from something like 9/10 stage roadies who mount a TT bike.

But if someone spends *time* in the position without addressing the postural issues, then they will most likely become frustrated because it will never feel right, or get injured.

 
Took me almost 3 years to be able ride a road bike at the same power I used to ride on a tri bike.
So for me at least you really do need to train in the position you race.
That is the only reason I find the UCI seat position rules reasonable for TT. Just the length restrictions are stupid.

The bars won't make you faster. Period. All those do is bring the shifters to your hands. The pads are where you're skeletally supported so pay attention to that first (with regard to the bar argument).
All of the following is followed by: but I'm only seeing 8 seconds of video from one angle.
Your fit starts at the saddle. It's hard to tell from the video but it looks like you are trying to ride a TT bike the same way you ride your road bike. You're bending at the back vs rotating your hips. You should be doing this for both disciplines but that's another thread. Your saddle will help you do this. I'm guessing here on this but by the way you scoot back at the start (again, I'm guessing) it looks like you've probably got a tradition saddle on there with a significant tilt to help with the TT position.

You're also engaging the power of the pedal stroke somewhere around 3 o'clock. So, you're leaving power on the course. You have long leg bones - that's why saddle height can look good (if even a bit high) but hip angle and saddle setback can be crunched.

Your hips are closed off. Not too bad but your whole position needs to open up from the BB back. Since you're able to hold neutral spine pretty well (for 8 seconds :-) I'd look at shorter cranks. What are you on now? Shorter cranks and a saddle which encourages hip rotation (stated better, allows hip rotation) will do wonders for you.

He is TT not tri.
So seat position is not really adjustable.
Most TT setups are done by setting up the best you can within front end restrictions and then sliding the seat back to be legal and just live with the seat being in a stupid place.
If they are lucky then the front end allows a good weight balance and the bum pretty much just floats above the front of the seat under TT power and is not a problem.
If the weight balance can not be sorted within front end limitations, then bad luck, just live with the myriad workarounds like sandpaper glued to the seat.

Awesome. I didn't mention tri.

I'm no expert but you could go forward and lower

I think you're referring to "extensions" as bars. The extensions hold the shifters.. The term "bars" is generally used to be short for "aerobars" and includes the base bar, extensions, and pads. And bar choice is absolutely critical since it's very important to several aspects of fit, and also in terms of pure equipment drag it can exceed the drag of the entire frame (minus the bars, rider, and wheels).

Edit: and I'd even argue that extension choice and angle can be important. Particularly angle.

I've been playing with tilting my saddle forward some and I think it has helped some. I'm a little bit lower/flatter off what looks to be about the same drop (I think, from an eyeballed comparison).

That was a rough day. I rode the same time I did pre-riding the course last week without the disc cover, skinsuit or any other aero stuff (or race motivation) and ~5-10 watts less. That favored heavier riders more than a flat TT otherwise would.

Unrelated, but if you're going to use his pictures for fit advice I'd suggest giving Leonard a few bucks for the downloadable copy.

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All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. ~Gandalf

I use the 3T Ventus II on my P4 with Zipp Aluminia Evo 110mm rise extensions. Pads can go more narrow than I can, and its a sleek setup. With pad fore/aft and reach adjustments I have found enough adjustability in the aerobar. If you shop around you can get the bar for around $600.

Do you know what suit the fellow on the P3 is wearing?

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No coasting in running and no crying in baseball