This gets to the heart of the question. From the conservative crowd:


On the one hand, they are all about saving coal jobs (lets accept the reasons you've given).

On the other hand, they are starkly opposed to raising the minimum wage.



While I'm open to hearing arguments to convince me otherwise, I have to wonder if this is entirely about *who* they think is impacted. ie Coal is middle aged, white, rural people. Minimum wage jobs are hipsters and other urbanites. What if Trump wanted to "Make Coffee Great Again?" Think it would get the same kind of support?

---

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

What if instead of coal miners it was abortion doctors. Would you be singing the same tune. "Golly gee, all he wants to do is save jobs. I don't see why people are on his case because he's trying to save jobs."

No, and even ignoring the inflammatory nature of the analogy, those aren't at all similar cases. You continue to drill down too deep and focus on the mere 174,000 trees instead of looking at them as they are- part of a much larger forest.

The medical field hasn't been decimated by decades of attrition. People who hold advanced degrees haven't seen opportunities to make a good living evaporate in front of their eyes, and they haven't seen alternative doors to prosperity slam shut one after the other. The professional class has not been savaged the effects of globalism. We haven't seen whole cities and geographic regions sink into despair because the professional class has seen their fortunes decline.

Yet.

It's not a coal mining thing. It's a working class thing. And time after time, the establishment on both the left and right has demonstrated their scorn and disdain for those in the working class who have been left behind in the shiny new global economy, and shown that they simply don't care to do anything about it. The disregard is palpable, and often explicitly expressed. Trump exploited that situation to win the White House, and now every time he signals that he does want to help people in that situation- literally, every time- you guys fall over yourselves to deride him for it. "He's a fraud! Those jobs aren't coming back! Squawk! Not coming back!"

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

On the one hand, they are all about saving coal jobs (lets accept the reasons you've given).

On the other hand, they are starkly opposed to raising the minimum wage.

You know what Trump said when asked about raising the minimum wage? I don't recall exactly, but it was something along the lines of, "We can talk about the minimum wage, but I'm more concerned with making sure there are a lot of jobs that pay way better than minimum wage."

Which is exactly the point. The jobs that we're talking about losing- that have largely already been lost- are good jobs that actually produce real things and actually provide a decent living for people. They're not minimum wage jobs. Trading them for a job flipping hamburgers or selling overpriced lattes or greeting people at Walmart for minimum wage is not a winning idea, and it doesn't become a good idea just because you raise the minimum wage from 8 to 10 bucks an hour or whatever.

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

You wouldn't think someone as brilliant as you would need a "hide list." Then again, elitists are often thin skinned.

---

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I didn't hide you.

Is there something funky going on with what posts I'm responding to? Serious question, because I keep agreeing with you, and then disagree with someone else, and then you respond as if I disagreed with you. This makes two in a row.

And the hide list is a good way to deal with trolls. I'm here to have a conversation, not to get sucked in by trolls who are just trying to find buttons to push. JSA is a 44 year old lawyer who is entirely capable of debating politics as an intelligent adult, but instead he seems to have more fun making of my hobbies or figuring out what ridiculous argument he can come up with to get under my skin and simply repeat it over and over again. Not really interested in that.

---

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Pretty simple answer: free and open markets. Do you disagree that it's a main tenet--perhaps THE main tenet--of conservative ideology? And there you go: minimum wage laws artificially inflate low-wage industries, something that conservatives believe is a net negative; and the EPA regs have substantially impacted the coal industry. Whether or not you AGREE with that position, do you admit that it's the generally accepted beliefs of us conservatives, and not us being racist assholes? Because ohbytheway you once again implied racism; remarkable how often you do that but then say 'I never called anyone racist'.

Barry lacks the intellectual capacity to see beyond a binary decision - to wit: coal is bad, ergo, we must destroy the industry. There is no thought beyond that. For an elitist like Barry, the "solution" is that these folk need to simply go to college, get a degree, and obtain a "respectable" job like a teacher or an engineer. To Barry, it is that simple. But, guys like Barry, cannot trust these plebes to understand what is in their best interests. So, we cannot give them the option to pursue this path, rather, we need to eviscerate the positions so they have no choice. To an elitist like Barry, it just that simple.

Tom, the problem with you is that you do not recognize and accept that Barry is your better. Once you accept that, Barry can finally find his safe place in the LR.

---

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Pretty simple answer: free and open markets. Do you disagree that it's a main tenet--perhaps THE main tenet--of conservative ideology? And there you go: minimum wage laws artificially inflate low-wage industries, something that conservatives believe is a net negative;

I think that's a fair point and a reasonable articulation of the conservative position. I also think it leads to a real problem for the working class, because inevitably, you face the prospect of the free and open market determining that good paying jobs in manufacturing or whatever can be done more cheaply in other countries, or with robots, and so on.

Is there a point at which you say that free market principles shouldn't reign supreme, and at which maximizing profits should not be the overriding goal of business or the economy? Because if not, I think you don't really have any better answer to the problem than Trump's critics do.

I think there is a real and significant difference between artificially inflating low wage jobs (retail, mostly) and protecting good paying jobs in productive industries. I don't think that difference stands up in the face of totally free market forces, though.

The whole business model of most minimum/low wage jobs depends on cheap labor. They pay low wages because the labor doesn't add enough value to make the business viable if wages were higher. You can't pay hamburger flippers 20 bucks an hour and remain profitable as a fast food franchise. I think everyone acknowledges that.

You can, however, run a manufacturing plant or a coal mine and pay workers 20 bucks and hour and remain profitable. You just can't remain AS profitable as if you offshore the jobs to China.

I actually heard an NPR with a machinist in that exact position just last week. Guy is mid-forties, was making 22 bucks an hour, had worked at his company for years. Company was successful throughout that time, but is moving production to Mexico, where they're going to pay about a tenth of his wage to workers. He has no idea what he's going to do for work going forward, how he's going to pay the bills, how he's going to keep paying for his two kids who are in college.

Same free market at work. How do you deal with that?

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

First off, I'd like to mention that I presented a simple argument because Barry was asking specifically about 'workers rights' issues and how you account for the stances on minimum wage vs coal. It's an easy answer, hence my response to him.

That said, what you're asking is far more complex and I won't pretend I know the solution. What I will say is the cost of doing business in the US needs to compare with that of foreign nations, and play on the 'American made' idea that people will support. What I do believe is that forcing businesses to pay higher wages than the market will organically support seems a good way to force some businesses to close; others to hire fewer workers; others to move to a more business-friendly environment. I'd rather we use some taxpayer money to incentivize businesses to operate in the US and make the cost of doing that business low. All that said, I'm not sure how I feel about, essentially, capping profits. I think stats show that the vast, vast majority of businesses operate on slim margins, the owner(s) aren't taking home much more than a fair return when accounting for the risk they've undertaken. The small minority of multi-national corporations raking in huge profits is certainly a concern...I work for one of the biggest banks in the world, I totally appreciate that my banks CEO making $12MM a year is pretty absurd, I just don't know what the solution is to that and it's still a very small percentage of companies that are in that type of situation, and I happen to be very happy with my job and my compensation.

A bit rambling but that's my position.

EDIT: I just realized I didn't really answer your question :) Sorry, I"m exhausted today and need to run. But you're right: retail and fast food is different than manufacturing. Additionally, retail and fast food is different in California than it is in Arkansas...hell, it's different in Boston than it is in Pittsfield. A fed minimum wage is such a bullshit one-size-fits-all 'solution' for vastly, vastly different situations. You can quite easily survive, hell thrive, on $15 an hour all over the country, but in most cities you'd practically starve. A fed minimum wage hike doesn't nothing to promote business.

The Democrats and progressives are very pro labor but only in a very specific sense -- they are clearly against ownership and management in that struggle. Campaigns like "war on labor" are always way over the top, but consider...

1.) Most American laborers regard our market system as a moral way to determine winners and losers. A President deciding to destroy an industry is immoral.
2.) Democrats are seen as the party most responsible for lax or unenforced immigration laws. Illegal immigration leads to lower labor wages.
3.) Most progressive elites do not share broad core moral values with labor class people.
4.) A recent theme incorporating #2 and #3 is progressive elites celebrating demographic changes due to immigration that will render the current (mostly white) labor class politically irrelevant.

I think those 4 reasons above are pretty heavy, politically. All any Republican or Trump had to do was make an overture to labor in many states. Meanwhile, the progressives didn't really reach out to labor. Instead, progressives just demonized Trump -- then they tried to establish guilt by association for all the new labor Trump voters.

Your last paragraph is part of the point I am trying to make re: the change in perception re: the party of labor

And let's not forget trump kicked 16 R candidates asses, including all the ones I preferred, before he took on Hillary. I don't like where he is now either but as opposed to (or in addition to) bashing him I am going to learn from how he got there

I think most people in this thread feel the same way you do. That's been a difficult point to try to stay on track in this thread. When I point out some of the flaws (for lack of a better word) in the love for coal, that's not to be dismissive of the perspectives of those voters.

And I agree with what SH said. Hillary more or less took working class workers for granted in this past election.

---

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

I think 174,000 EX-coal miners preparing ground, manufacturing, assembling, and maintaining wind and photo-voltaic farms, is a hell of an idea. I'd be significantly more content if I were taxed in order to subsidize moving them, and training them. Paying less for their healthcare over the long term sounds attractive as well. McConnell, and 2 Koch's are not going to die from black lung. - We shouldn't care about coal.

We have been hearing about the plight of the coal miner since before Sissy Spacek sang the songs. They have been crying about their lives, livelihood, lungs, 16 tons, and the Company Store for 100 years. Anyone that now stays in Coal Country, stays because they haven't the sense to leave. Don't tell me there is no escape or limited opportunities. Ya! - you probably need to "load up the truck, and move t'Beverly."

Any parent over 50yo who allowed themselves to stay, or allowed their kids to ride down into a mine being exposed to that environment, has no one to blame but themselves. I wanna care about people, and I wanna help get them outta the proverbial water - but they gotta climb into the lifeboat. We need to care about people, we need to provide alternative opportunities. One alternative energy source can't solve the equation alone, but isn't there a 40 mile long wind farm in West Texas? - we don't need to care about coal.

Over the course of the past 8 years, billions have been thrown at community college level education. Inexpensive valuable training, re-training and educational advancement that doesn't even require a HS diploma to begin. Not free; however, monetarily manageable. If that opportunity is not taken advantage of; then your problems are your own. Close the mine. Adapt!

"If what we are doing harms us...
We must change what we are doing."

Churchill (I think)