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Re: What happened to our allies paying their fair share? [ChiTownJack] [ In reply to ]
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ChiTownJack wrote:
Leddy wrote:

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Looks like Germany may step up:


Do we really want to give the Germans a reason to build a bigger army. Historically that hasn't worked out so well !!!


Yes, NATO members agreed to spend at least 2% of GDP on defense - Germany is not spending their required 2% yet.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2017/02/daily-chart-11

Both GWB and Obama complained about NATO members failing to meet their defense spending commitments.

What is the purpose of NATO nowadays? Certainly not to contiue the fight against communism from eastern Europe? Seems its now mostly to provide the USA with jumping point bases to the middle east. If NATO isn't obsolete then it at least needs its purpose evaluated and redefined.
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Re: What happened to our allies paying their fair share? [FishyJoe] [ In reply to ]
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FishyJoe wrote:
I didn't even realize this, but Saudi Arabia outspends Russia in defense. It makes me wonder why S.A. didn't play a bigger role in any of these middle eastern wars.

And the US outspends China by 3-4 times. Someone explain to me why we need to make more nukes when the US outspends Russia by like 8x in defense? Do we really need to outspend Russia by 10x?

Once again Trump needs a fact checker.
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Re: What happened to our allies paying their fair share? [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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And yet 99% of the trump ballWashers likely have zero issue paying for his kid's security detail as they travel the world conducting family business ...lol...
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Re: What happened to our allies paying their fair share? [Perseus] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, thats right snowflake, i'm a liberal.........

Your reading comprehensions about as good as the other clown that responded.

I believe long before this thread was started. In fact when pence and co explained in munich to juncker and the other assclowns that either their spending went up or the US spending went down that this was long overdue.........

Liberals eh.......you must be related to RR
Last edited by: Andrewmc: Feb 28, 17 9:37
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Re: What happened to our allies paying their fair share? [TheForge] [ In reply to ]
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What I don't understand is why the "fiscally conservative" party wouldn't push the Pentagon to account for spending before handing more money over. I suspect this is at least part of the reason you're not in favor of opening the purse strings further. What I haven't seen yet is either party pressing to figure out where $6trillion in unexplained military spending just disappeared to over the prior decade.


TheForge wrote:
Well apparently I'm one of the few republicans who thinks we need to cut military spending by a lot. But most think we need more and the inertia is here on both sides to ensure it remains at current levels or higher levels.
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Re: What happened to our allies paying their fair share? [Rodred] [ In reply to ]
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Yet again you demonstrate reading comprehension a little behind my 3 year old daughters.

Show me a single fact / statistic in his post. "We pay the lions share" is neither. Its a statement. Its a bit like "rodred does not understand the difference between a statement and a statistic /fact, as evidenced by a post where he claims someone made a point supported by plenty of facts when they did not provide a single statistic or fact to support it"

To be clear. 1) there may be statistics to support it. I know there are but its not my job to make your case for you. 2) you appear to suffer from the same delusions of telepathy and inference my wife does. Which is that, rather than understanding what is written and what that means you tell me what i really meant.

I understand you will find this hard to grasp but if i meant something other than what i wrote i would have written it.

Perhaps you should read things twice before responding.

To your first point - it was amusing.
Last edited by: Andrewmc: Feb 27, 17 20:22
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Re: What happened to our allies paying their fair share? [MidwestRoadie] [ In reply to ]
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I already told you why. Think of the military like the republicans version of public education, except more effective in general.

The republicans make up 3 basic core constituencies (yes, they can be subdivided), but you have fiscal hawks, social conservatives and war hawks. There is generally more overlap between these groups than any sort of democrat voter, but all support a strong military, just differ in opinions on how much. But it is foolish to think that social conservatives give a shit about fiscal conservatism as a voting block or war hawks. Have you heard of a war that McCain, Graham or Rubio wouldn't commit us to with billions in cost, meanwhile bitching about spending on other programs. The problem I have with having such a greatly powerful military above all others, is than these assholes say what "what good is having such a big military if we don't use it".

Yes, next to entitlement, defense is the largest cost. And because all republicans generally support being the strongest military power, 2 out of three who don't believe in fiscal restraint when it comes to the military, tends to drown out any sort of dissent. Rand Paul tried that only to be personally accosted by John McCain in the hall way. Too many constituencies are depending on military spending whether it is contractors or the military itself that it is impossible to reign it in. Do you want to vote on a bill that cuts spending and closes a base in your district with thousands of jobs that will simply go to another state? Do you want to force Lockheed, L3 com, Boeing, or any other contractor to cut a specific model without a replacement? It is no mystery why nearly every congressional district has at least one major military contractor as a major employer. Nearly every city I have lived in had strong ties to the military.

1. Virginia Beach - switches between largest and second largest concentration of military bases in the world. Also home to several navy ship builders (Lockheed, etc.)

2. Washington DC/NOVA - well that doesn't count, but that explains why the two richest counties are the suburbs of DC.

3. Orlando & Tampa - Had major offices from Lockheed (the largest non-local gov't or hospitality employer in central florida), Harris, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Knight Armament, etc. NASA was close by, so shared resources. Centcom and SOCCOM were headquartered in Tampa at McDill AFB.

4. Arizona - Tazer, Luke AFB, Raytheon, Honeywell Aerospace, General Dynamics, etc, etc, etc.


"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden
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Re: What happened to our allies paying their fair share? [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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I thought ISIS was suppose to be defeated by now anyway as Trump unleashed his secret plan on them?
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Re: What happened to our allies paying their fair share? [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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ThisIsIt wrote:
I thought ISIS was suppose to be defeated by now anyway as Trump unleashed his secret plan on them?

Trump said he knew how to defeat ISIS. Perhaps he needs smarter people in the Pentagon to understand his brilliant plan and put it into action.

Oh, wait, was it that we weren't supposed to take his words literally?

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: What happened to our allies paying their fair share? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:

Oh, wait, was it that we weren't supposed to take his words literally?

Literally but not seriously. Or figuratively but not actually. Or was it seriously but not figuratively?

Ah fuck it. FAKE NEWS!!!!

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: What happened to our allies paying their fair share? [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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ThisIsIt wrote:
I thought ISIS was suppose to be defeated by now anyway as Trump unleashed his secret plan on them?

How do you know it's not already happening?
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Re: What happened to our allies paying their fair share? [TheForge] [ In reply to ]
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I know all of that. That's the academic and logical reasons, but the failure for "fiscally conservative" GOP consistency in this area goes beyond the academic reasons and straight to the emotionally illogical and fear-based.

We agree here -- you don't have a military as large as ours without finding "necessary" reasons to use it. I'd argue that the heart of it though is a fear-based mentality that sees potential danger around every corner, thus the need to keep building up military resources. And when you have a hammer like that every problem becomes a nail & the fear becomes a self-fulfilling system...which is neither conservative fiscally nor an actual resolution to issues.

It could be argued that those with such a heavy military emphasis don't want to actually engage in conflict. Perhaps they want to engage in violence and war, but not the actual conflict; military operations and war itself doesn't actually address the root conflict, because the issue becomes about destroying an opponent, not about figuring out the deeper issue that led to the war and having the necessary conflict of ideas and systems to resolve the conflict. While necessary at times, it's not "the" answer that our already huge military suggests it to be.



TheForge wrote:
I already told you why. Think of the military like the republicans version of public education, except more effective in general.

The republicans make up 3 basic core constituencies (yes, they can be subdivided), but you have fiscal hawks, social conservatives and war hawks. There is generally more overlap between these groups than any sort of democrat voter, but all support a strong military, just differ in opinions on how much. But it is foolish to think that social conservatives give a shit about fiscal conservatism as a voting block or war hawks. Have you heard of a war that McCain, Graham or Rubio wouldn't commit us to with billions in cost, meanwhile bitching about spending on other programs. The problem I have with having such a greatly powerful military above all others, is than these assholes say what "what good is having such a big military if we don't use it".

Yes, next to entitlement, defense is the largest cost. And because all republicans generally support being the strongest military power, 2 out of three who don't believe in fiscal restraint when it comes to the military, tends to drown out any sort of dissent. Rand Paul tried that only to be personally accosted by John McCain in the hall way. Too many constituencies are depending on military spending whether it is contractors or the military itself that it is impossible to reign it in. Do you want to vote on a bill that cuts spending and closes a base in your district with thousands of jobs that will simply go to another state? Do you want to force Lockheed, L3 com, Boeing, or any other contractor to cut a specific model without a replacement? It is no mystery why nearly every congressional district has at least one major military contractor as a major employer. Nearly every city I have lived in had strong ties to the military.

1. Virginia Beach - switches between largest and second largest concentration of military bases in the world. Also home to several navy ship builders (Lockheed, etc.)

2. Washington DC/NOVA - well that doesn't count, but that explains why the two richest counties are the suburbs of DC.

3. Orlando & Tampa - Had major offices from Lockheed (the largest non-local gov't or hospitality employer in central florida), Harris, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Knight Armament, etc. NASA was close by, so shared resources. Centcom and SOCCOM were headquartered in Tampa at McDill AFB.

4. Arizona - Tazer, Luke AFB, Raytheon, Honeywell Aerospace, General Dynamics, etc, etc, etc.
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Re: What happened to our allies paying their fair share? [Old Hickory] [ In reply to ]
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Old Hickory wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
I thought ISIS was suppose to be defeated by now anyway as Trump unleashed his secret plan on them?


How do you know it's not already happening?

Do you honestly expect people to believe that Trump wouldn't brag about his awesome plan?

But reality is it was happening long before Trump got in office. I just hope that when you give Trump credit for sitting there at the end you go back and give Obama credit for shooting bin laden in the face.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: What happened to our allies paying their fair share? [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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j p o wrote:
Old Hickory wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
I thought ISIS was suppose to be defeated by now anyway as Trump unleashed his secret plan on them?


How do you know it's not already happening?


Do you honestly expect people to believe that Trump wouldn't brag about his awesome plan?

But reality is it was happening long before Trump got in office. I just hope that when you give Trump credit for sitting there at the end you go back and give Obama credit for shooting bin laden in the face.

The delusional show no signs of changing or improving. So I have very low expectations of what some people will chose to believe and not.
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Re: What happened to our allies paying their fair share? [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not calling you delusional. I think those guys are pretty obviously delusional.
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Re: What happened to our allies paying their fair share? [Old Hickory] [ In reply to ]
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Old Hickory wrote:
I'm not calling you delusional. I think those guys are pretty obviously delusional.

That's not how you start a fight.

Fuck you, I am TOO delusional.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: What happened to our allies paying their fair share? [Old Hickory] [ In reply to ]
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Old Hickory wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
I thought ISIS was suppose to be defeated by now anyway as Trump unleashed his secret plan on them?


How do you know it's not already happening?
It's a "secret plan". It's already happening, it's just that nobody knows it's happening.

"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.
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Re: What happened to our allies paying their fair share? [Alvin Tostig] [ In reply to ]
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Alvin Tostig wrote:
Old Hickory wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
I thought ISIS was suppose to be defeated by now anyway as Trump unleashed his secret plan on them?


How do you know it's not already happening?

It's a "secret plan". It's already happening, it's just that nobody knows it's happening.

That's what I was thinking... sort of like fluoride in the water.
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Re: What happened to our allies paying their fair share? [MidwestRoadie] [ In reply to ]
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Military spending and involvement in world conflict is something I generally agree with liberals and democrats on. I think having the biggest baddest military serves a legitimate purpose, but have an even bigger and badder military than that fulfills a base human instinct of insecurity.

Like we mentioned, we spend 10 times more than Russian, who for all intent and purpose is the most advance military we are likely to face. My best friend teaches at Annapolis now, and absolutely supports more spending. But he posed some good points. While we may have spent a lot more on military assets than anybody else, in his opinion, we have focused on Navy and Air Force assets. Special forces have seen a rise in use, but that isn't capital heavy. Regular/Traditional army and battlefield technologies have fallen behind Russia or even China. The new Russian tanks are supposedly more advanced than ours, which is 30 year technology. Artillery is decades older. A war with China or Russia would be more traditional. I disagree, but hey he is the military guy and makes a good point. Maintaining traditional military boundaries does require traditional military assets. But I would think the R&D of tanks and other traditional assets would pale in comparison to the f35, or floating cities.

There has to be some middle ground where we can get out of date technologies upgraded.


"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden
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Re: What happened to our allies paying their fair share? [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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How do you know it's not already happening?

Do you honestly expect people to believe that Trump wouldn't brag about his awesome plan?

But reality is it was happening long before Trump got in office. I just hope that when you give Trump credit for sitting there at the end you go back and give Obama credit for shooting bin laden in the face.

Trump asked his Generals 30 days to come up with a plan to defeat ISIS and they are working on the plan now so whatever is happening now hasn't changed since Obama. That won't stop the Trump groupies for giving him credit for the good and blaming the bad on Obama or the media though.

You can also bet that the General's plan will not be the same as Trumps (to bomb the shit out of them) despite the fact that according to Trump, he knows more than they do.
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Re: What happened to our allies paying their fair share? [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
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Sanuk wrote:
How do you know it's not already happening?

Do you honestly expect people to believe that Trump wouldn't brag about his awesome plan?

But reality is it was happening long before Trump got in office. I just hope that when you give Trump credit for sitting there at the end you go back and give Obama credit for shooting bin laden in the face.

Trump asked his Generals 30 days to come up with a plan to defeat ISIS and they are working on the plan now so whatever is happening now hasn't changed since Obama. That won't stop the Trump groupies for giving him credit for the good and blaming the bad on Obama or the media though.

You can also bet that the General's plan will not be the same as Trumps (to bomb the shit out of them) despite the fact that according to Trump, he knows more than they do.


Trump's troop talk from the Republican primary debates. I think this was well after his secret plan revelation. When no one takes you seriously, you can say anything.

“We really have no choice, we have to knock out ISIS,” Trump said. “I would listen to the generals, but I’m hearing numbers of 20,000-30,000.”
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