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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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yep, thats the only reason. It comes with 1 year free services so when its due i will take it there. Its just i have my 3 year old with me. Nothing a car dvd player wont fix to entertain him. Its not a big drama, i was just hoping my local could change some cranks for me. In the end i youtubed it and did it myself. As for servicing it will go to where i bought it since its free.

As for the rest, there are other shops here within 15-30mins drive i can use if i wanted to. I went to him because i have used him before with a bike i bought from him. As well as accessories etc.
Since this i have used other local mechanics to help me build up a cannondale slice tri training bike when i was having issues with cabling and the ferruls lol.
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]
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This is the issue I don't get. So customers want the best deal. So they get the best deal and then go back to what is most convienent. When that convenience is threatened only then does it become an issue.

Now there is no way in hell I'd tell the customer go pound sand especially one that bought bikes from before. I get it people always want a deal.

I just think if the customer only has 2 options- LBS and 90 min round trip shop, that you should look at it more than just a "deal".

IE it's karma also if you went with a $300 deal and now your only bike option is said 90 min drive away. Karma can work both ways.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]
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jimatbeyond wrote:
A bike shop won't buy from Wiggle because they don't want to give Wiggle any more profit.
Not sure Wiggle is making much in the way of profit, to be honest. Again, the math doesn't add up.

Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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where did u get 90mins from? 1hr drive tops.
I will drive an hour to save $300. He didnt want to change the cranks because i didnt pay the extra 300 and buy from him. There are other shops 15-30mins who can do that. I ended up learning to do it myself. Its more the 'your not welcome back here and arent allowed on shop rides' tantrum which amuses me. All this from a text message after taking my bike to change cranks!
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
That's a tough setup there but my question for you is this.

Why don't you go to the bike shop that you bought the bike from? Is it because of the 1 hour drive?

ETA: who's it karma for you? Or the bike shop? Do you now have to drive 90 mins to get your bike tuned up? If so, yikes. So if there are other closer shops yes he was stupid. Well he was stupid in decision making but if you are now stuck w 90 min drive for any bike stuff, that's not much fun either. Certainly not likely worth $300 in bike savings.

But that's not to let LBS owner off, your a repeat customer to him. It sounds like he simply did to you what you did to him.

Sounds more like the shop owner says if he can't have all your business, he doesn't want any of it. Almost like "I sold you a bike once, so you owe me all your future business." I suspect very few of us buy all of everything at one store. Food, clothes, cars, etc. While it's certainly the owner's right to do this, it doesn't seem that he realizes that a paying customer is a good customer (at least most of the time.) There's a reason Ford and Chevrolet dealers service their competitors' cars.

The LBS I use build my FLO rims on Powertap hubs that I provided. They gave me advice on spokes and nipples. And no guff. There are 3 shops closer, including the one where I used to work.

I'm sure Specialized would be very happy hear that one of their dealers refused to work on a bike purchased elsewhere.
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [coates_hbk] [ In reply to ]
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You said 45 min drive so I didn't know if you meant round trip or one way. I assumed it was one way you were referring to.

Now yes that's an extreme overreaction, but my point more was you and him lose in that relationship. Not saying that was the right reaction, I think that's crazy to bar you from activities. Now you don't get to do their group rides or activities etc. so I'm not saying you or him are in the right. Just that karma seems to have hit both of you.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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If the request was to change these cranks out for free, I would get how this transpired. But, who in their right mind turns away $100 in labor away? That is easy money, no sales guy involved, no inventory, just a wrench and some tools.

Pactimo brand ambassador, ask me about promo codes
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [Ed C] [ In reply to ]
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Ed C wrote:
If you only base purchasing decisions on price, I can see why you would be anti-LBS. But if you hit up a place that knows how to delivery great customer service, you don't mind paying a premium for items since you know you are getting overall value.
Yeah, I do most everything myself with my bikes. Given that I'm going to install most any component / tire myself, given that a tire, stem or RD from Wiggle is the same as one from an LBS and given that Wiggle will ship to my door, price is my sole motivating factor. The other downsides I mention about an LBS just reinforce the choice. I realize other people's priorities may vary.

To repeat, I don't blame LBSs for the majority of these issues (barring the occasionally surly service). I get it that it's a very tough business and I get it that most LBSs are run by honest people who aren't exactly getting rich. To me, this is not a new story, after all the internet has been disrupting brick and mortar for two decades. Fighting against the internet with price controls like companies like SRAM are attempting it is like fighting an incoming tide, you're probably going to lose.
Last edited by: hiro11: Feb 15, 17 7:01
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [MTBSully] [ In reply to ]
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A bike shop that is apparently running itself out of business.

But that wasn't really my point. "karma" was brought up. My point was that it looks like both parties got kicked in the ass over $300.

customer now can't take advantage of group rides or shop convience. Shop now is likely running itself out of business.

ETA: and I'm not putting fault in either party. Id say like 5% of customers likely buy all from 1 shop. You'd be crazy to not work on other store bought bikes. You do much better as "good will" if you can put the ego aside.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Feb 15, 17 7:22
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [rijndael] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, a lot of LBSs are really doing things quite badly, especially where slightly more experienced or demanding customers are concerned.
I would think there are two main modern challenges to their role:
1. Internet sales undercutting their pricing
2. Availability of low cost bikes from mainstream sources (Target, Walmart, etc)

If bike shops can'd compete on price they have to distinguish themselves in the areas where they can potentially compete: product and general advice, follow-up support, easiness and confidence in purchase decisions, speed of acquisition, customisation, and feel-good factor. However, instead of accepting the pricing situation and maximising their strengths, many shops seem to try and bully, scare or guilt their potential customers into buying from them. Surely this rarely works and either way it will leave a bitter taste in the customers mouth?
If selling bikes isn't profitable, try and make the money elsewhere. Do what you're good at. Don't try and sell a bike with the promise of free servicing. Just try and sell your excellent servicing. If a shop knows they can't compete on price, they'd be better off simply telling the customer that, and explaining their choices, without judgement or anger. In all seriousness, a bike shop who owns up to the fact they can't compete for a particular sale but gives advice and/or remains pleasant anyway, will buy themselves good will and convey a sense of honesty and helpfulness that is what will keep people coming back. Then, when the stuff you're good at comes along, be it small day to day purchases, servicing, or maybe even fitting, they'll be back. If a shop was abrupt with me when they realised I was probably going to buy a bike online rather than from them, I wouldn't come back looking for other services later.
I have a Canyon roadbike. Any shop will know I bought it online. If I know they openly resent that, I'm not going to let them service my bike. I'll go to the guy who accepts that online bike sales are legitimate and sensible and is happy to do the thing he's good at, i.e. service the bike. Trying to shame customers for making good purchases will never work in the long run.

On a slight tangent but a related note, a friend of mine bought a new road bike from the LBS a few years ago. He got a decent deal on the bike and all was good. He was a reasonable cyclist, not hugely strong but alright. He mostly cycled on the flat. A few weeks later he came for a ride in the mountains with me and he really suffered on the steeper climbs. I had a look and saw he was using a 12-25 cassette. I suggested a bigger sprocket would really make a difference for future rides and recommended he switch to a 12-27 or similar cassette. I even mentioned that I'd seen them on sale at http://www.chainreactioncycles.com the previous week. He decided to go back to the shop and give them a bit more custom instead. Commendably, he preferred to spend his money locally and he'd probably get them to fit it while he was at it. So he went back to the LBS and asked them if they had a 12-27 cassette in stock. They told him he didn't need it. He explained that he had started riding in the mountains and planned to continue but had found he needed a smaller gear. They told him he didn't need it, they wouldn't sell it to him and he just needed to train more.
My friend left and has never been back. He bought a cassette online, I lent him my chain whip and lockring adaptor. Who needs that crap!
I've detected hints of this sort of thing from other LBSs myself. An attitude of superiority like they were doing you a favour selling you something. Also, less subtle, when I was shopping for my tri bike, an attitude that they were entitled to your custom. I ended up buying my tri-bike online as well. If I remember correctly, I got my Felt IA14 for €3180 online rather than €4299 locally. I don't hold that against the LBS. I'm sure it's not their fault, but they are making a huge mistake when they imply that it's the customers fault. Do they really think I'll pay about 33% more, more than €1100 for their advice (which I don't need) and a couple of free services, that I can do myself and are only worth maybe €150 anyway? They need to fix the cost problem if they can or accept the situation if they can't. There's no point in getting annoyed with your customers. It's not their job to support your business. It's your job to attract their business.
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [Leavitt] [ In reply to ]
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Leavitt wrote:
turningscrews wrote:
you can't buy love ;)


I've been to Amsterdam....I disagree

LOL! 15 minutes though, i dont know for sure... a friend told me
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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Ai_1 wrote:
Yes, a lot of LBSs are really doing things quite badly, especially where slightly more experienced or demanding customers are concerned.
I would think there are two main modern challenges to their role:
1. Internet sales undercutting their pricing
2. Availability of low cost bikes from mainstream sources (Target, Walmart, etc)

If bike shops can'd compete on price they have to distinguish themselves in the areas where they can potentially compete: product and general advice, follow-up support, easiness and confidence in purchase decisions, speed of acquisition, customisation, and feel-good factor. However, instead of accepting the pricing situation and maximising their strengths, many shops seem to try and bully, scare or guilt their potential customers into buying from them. Surely this rarely works and either way it will leave a bitter taste in the customers mouth?
If selling bikes isn't profitable, try and make the money elsewhere. Do what you're good at. Don't try and sell a bike with the promise of free servicing. Just try and sell your excellent servicing. If a shop knows they can't compete on price, they'd be better off simply telling the customer that, and explaining their choices, without judgement or anger. In all seriousness, a bike shop who owns up to the fact they can't compete for a particular sale but gives advice and/or remains pleasant anyway, will buy themselves good will and convey a sense of honesty and helpfulness that is what will keep people coming back. Then, when the stuff you're good at comes along, be it small day to day purchases, servicing, or maybe even fitting, they'll be back. If a shop was abrupt with me when they realised I was probably going to buy a bike online rather than from them, I wouldn't come back looking for other services later.
I have a Canyon roadbike. Any shop will know I bought it online. If I know they openly resent that, I'm not going to let them service my bike. I'll go to the guy who accepts that online bike sales are legitimate and sensible and is happy to do the thing he's good at, i.e. service the bike. Trying to shame customers for making good purchases will never work in the long run.

On a slight tangent but a related note, a friend of mine bought a new road bike from the LBS a few years ago. He got a decent deal on the bike and all was good. He was a reasonable cyclist, not hugely strong but alright. He mostly cycled on the flat. A few weeks later he came for a ride in the mountains with me and he really suffered on the steeper climbs. I had a look and saw he was using a 12-25 cassette. I suggested a bigger sprocket would really make a difference for future rides and recommended he switch to a 12-27 or similar cassette. I even mentioned that I'd seen them on sale at http://www.chainreactioncycles.com the previous week. He decided to go back to the shop and give them a bit more custom instead. Commendably, he preferred to spend his money locally and he'd probably get them to fit it while he was at it. So he went back to the LBS and asked them if they had a 12-27 cassette in stock. They told him he didn't need it. He explained that he had started riding in the mountains and planned to continue but had found he needed a smaller gear. They told him he didn't need it, they wouldn't sell it to him and he just needed to train more.
My friend left and has never been back. He bought a cassette online, I lent him my chain whip and lockring adaptor. Who needs that crap!
I've detected hints of this sort of thing from other LBSs myself. An attitude of superiority like they were doing you a favour selling you something. Also, less subtle, when I was shopping for my tri bike, an attitude that they were entitled to your custom. I ended up buying my tri-bike online as well. If I remember correctly, I got my Felt IA14 for €3180 online rather than €4299 locally. I don't hold that against the LBS. I'm sure it's not their fault, but they are making a huge mistake when they imply that it's the customers fault. Do they really think I'll pay about 33% more, more than €1100 for their advice (which I don't need) and a couple of free services, that I can do myself and are only worth maybe €150 anyway? They need to fix the cost problem if they can or accept the situation if they can't. There's no point in getting annoyed with your customers. It's not their job to support your business. It's your job to attract their business.

local shop to me mentioned that once i had my fitting done, i'd know a lot better which bikes / frames would be best for my fit and i'd have a lot more knowledge going to the open market. so i recently purchased a frame elsewhere and when they transfer all of my current components and confirm my fit specs are still right, they will get about $300 in revenue. without purchasing a part from them. so i think they make out better that way. they let me shop around for the best deal for me and then take in the money for a few hours of service.

store owners have to lose the attitude of the customer "owing" them anything. we work hard for our money too and if i am going to spend it on a luxury item like a bicycle, i'm going to shop around.

one LBS to me offers free lifetime tune ups with a purchase. that's a good deal, assuming you trust the mechanic. not sure how comprehensive it is but its something. local shops probably make more money from family bikes than the type we buy. how much time does a sales guy spend with us? or the 10 year old? all the 10 year old wants is the color and design. they dont care about components or aerodynamics/wind tunnel data. sell them the red bike with shark teeth for $350, then the pink one to his little sister, then mom or dad needs a new hybrid to ride with them. helmets and waterbottles for all, then suddenly, they ring up over $1000 for probably 1 hour of work.
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]
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If that's really the case, then it's no wonder they are dying off.

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [Gskalt] [ In reply to ]
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There is more money to be made on the $4,000 bike than the cheap townies. A lot of time is wasted on people kicking tires from shop to shop and have no clue what they want. I know my LBS would stop carrying hybrids and townies if the could, but you get a bad rap when that is what people are looking for. People are quick to say "every bike in there is over $x,000." The bread and butter for most "good" shops is the $3k-$4k, "I want a tri/road/mountain bike with ultegra, ride around a size 54" 2 hours later you have been on 4 brands and out the door, or you do a fit, and they make money on that plus sell you a bike.

Pactimo brand ambassador, ask me about promo codes
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I wanted to buy a new tri bike at a local shop. They didn't have any in stock. They insisted on MRSP for the bike. No negotiation. I told them I could buy it for literally 40% off the MRSP online.

I do all of my own mechanical work. I don't need a local shop. I was trying to be nice and buy local. I didn't ask him to match. I didn't want to come close. I said, give me 10 or 15% off of MRSP and I will buy from you since you are close and I want to support local.

No dice. No interest. So instead, he has made nothing from me.

I run a business. Everything is negotiable. Every day. I would never give up a sale to be set on always getting asking price.
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [MTBSully] [ In reply to ]
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MTBSully wrote:
There is more money to be made on the $4,000 bike than the cheap townies.
Based on the offers I was made while shopping around, I'm guessing there's about $800-1000 of markup on a $4K bike.
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [rijndael] [ In reply to ]
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Around $1,400 to $1,600.
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
"if you buy from them we will not help you with any warranty work."

two things. first, just make sure he wasn't making the same statement you would make if you were him. will santa cruz compensate him for warranty work? if not, why would he do it? why would you do it? just make sure you're not blaming your LBS because of santa cruz's policy for warranty.

second, let's say that he would be compensated by santa cruz for warranty. i this case you're absolutely right. this is one reason we are getting ready to announce a confederacy of shops called "spoke alliance" and one of the hallmarks of this group of shops is the absense of that pouting and nonsense.

I would think that any "Santa Cruz" dealer would be required to handle warranty work. What if someone buys their bike in NY and moves to California, surely Santa Cruz wouldn't expect them to go back to NY just to get any warranty claims handled?
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [Gskalt] [ In reply to ]
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Boy, I guess I can't disagree with most of what's said here, although a lot of it bums me out. I'll give a different perspective.

We're all free economic agents and I get that. No one should be forced to overpay for a good or service if they don't see the value. What I will say though is that retail and a lot of other consumer facing industries are dying a quick death in America and a big part of me wishes this wasn't the case. Recognize that there may be more behind perceived bad attitudes than meets the eye. Working for a struggling business sucks. A lot of the owners or employees that are the biggest culprits of "bad attitude" might just be passionate bike enthusiasts who are really bummed out they can no longer pay the bills working in the industry they love. Everyone has a good attitude when life's easy, it's harder when you owe past due daycare bills and someone who pulled up in a beemer is chiseling you out of $30 on a potential sale of tires.

Do we as reasonably affluent consumers (in aggregate) OWE our LBS anything? I guess not in the literal sense of the word, but I can't help but feel like society would be a better place if there was a more dynamic retail base in a lot of communities. This isn't a going to happen and it's no ones fault individually. My wife and I shop almost exclusively online...you know... because it's cheaper and more convenient. I get it. I for one am ok paying retail at my LBS though. I like that they exist and I appreciate their role in creating a sense of "community". Maybe I'm just lucky that we have one of the good ones where I live.
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [lschaan] [ In reply to ]
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we use amazon prime a lot as well. same price, dont have to make an extra trip to a store, etc. why would i drive 30 minutes to a book store, pay for street parking and buy the book, when i can order it online and have it the next day? especially when the store hours arent convenient? same thing with bikes and bike goods. sometimes it just doesnt make sense. everythting costs more now, we're making less money and as much as we "NEED" new things for our bikes, we dont. we want them.

i think its wrong to go to a shop and get their expert opinions, use their time and then buy online cheaper, unless its remarkably different.

i agree that sales people can be snarky at times and its got to be frustrating. i've worked in sales, selling a product nobody wanted and was able to get for free or cheap. it sucked. i had a sales manager up my ass becuase i wasnt meeting targets and as much as we wanted to believe it, our product/service wasnt worth the extra money and they eventually folded.

as somebody pointed out earlier, we buy used stuff. if i see somebody posts on the classified forum that they are selling their brand new aerobars that came stock on their bike, why would i go to the shop and buy it at MSRP? somebody buys a helmet and it doesnt fit them, so i buy it from them for a discount.... it just doesnt make any sense.
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [lschaan] [ In reply to ]
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lschaan wrote:
Do we as reasonably affluent consumers (in aggregate) OWE our LBS anything?

I get the whole concept of stakeholders. But customers are earned and a vendor earns repeat business. I think we do owe them the chance to earn our business, especially repeat business. It's you money and you can spend it any way you want, affluent or not. If it makes you happy to support the LBS, that's great. I spend some money at a full price LBS. And I get great advice and service for it, even if I bring in parts that I bought elsewhere. But I use what little affluence I have to try to help others less fortunate who may have a chance to improve themselves.

That works for me. It may or may not work for others.
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Like outside bike reps, brick and mortars are dropping like flies. Look at Coates Cyclery (opened in 1933) and Westlake Cyclery (opened in 1975), both in the 12 month market we call So. Ca. have shut their doors. Neither shop answered the call to online sales and mobile bike mechanics. Times are a changing, not like the good old days when we actually used to write orders at IB. B2B portals are are replacing the need for outside reps.
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
I'm pretty sure there are contractual issues with doing what you suggest.

I'm almost positive it would be breach of contract and liability issues.

ETA: the key for an LBS to make it is not to get caught up in the "sale". That's when I think stores get away from their core and only intererested in money. Stored need to market the experience that the customer will have w the shop. If that's done right, *most* people will pay for it. They are willing to pay for the experience of choosing between 3 bikes and the pro/cons of each choice and have someone to bounce ideas off of. That purchasing experience is what consumers want/hope/expect.

This. I just did a career change from pharma consulting to sales manager at a LBS that's healthy. The thing I preach to our staff is people go to the bike shop because bikes are fun. Every customer - ask what kind of riding they like to do, where do they ride, how was their last ride? Develop a rapport with everyone who walks into the shop. We just had a 14 mile bike path open near the shop. I'll ask them if they know about it yet and we have handouts of where the trail heads are.

If they buy something online because it's cheaper - of course they would. You have to expect customers to be loyal to their wallets, not the shop's wallet. However, we will gladly answer any questions you have and do the installation for you. Buy your bike online? We'll put it together for you. We just got a nice billable 1.5 hours of shop time to build the bike you got from Competitive Cyclist. Now the customer wants a fitting done and they now bought a new saddle and stem to get their fit right. So, that online shopper just spent $300 in our shop to have us build, fit, and put some new parts on their bike.
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Re: LBS - Salesman Issues [BBB1975] [ In reply to ]
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If the others can follow your lead, I hope that your shop is very successful.
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