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Re: Bad news for Lance [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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cartsman wrote:
tridork wrote:
Jason80134 wrote:
Without the cheating, Armstrong would not have the money he has. So I'm happy to see him part with all of it.


If everyone was clean, including Lance, he'd have won.


Not necessarily. Not everybody gets the same benefit from doping e.g. somebody who naturally had high haematocrit levels would get less benefit from EPO than somebody who had naturally lower ones. And not everybody was on the same doping programme. Some of Armstrong's team-mates have said that he got a lot of benefit from doping (whereas Hincapie reportedly got not so much). And certainly Armstrong seems to have had the most professional doping programme.

So you can't simply say that a doped Lance beating a doped field means that a clean Lance would have beaten a clean field. Maybe his intelligence, competitiveness and single-mindedness would have got him some wins anyway, or maybe there were riders out there who in the absence of doping had more natural talent than him and would have beaten him. No way of knowing for sure either way.

My basis for saying he'd have won without doping was his past. His national tri champ, as a teen is a good indicator. He did really well, beating established top level pro's long before his drug use.
Surely that has to make him odds on favourite as winner IF cycling could ever be clean?

TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"
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Re: Bad news for Lance [tridork] [ In reply to ]
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Do you know who his coach was as a teen? A guy found guilty of doping American teens. Still, he did not have the level of talent as a Lemond or others at that age. He was good, but not that good
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Re: Bad news for Lance [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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Kenney wrote:
Do you know who his coach was as a teen? A guy found guilty of doping American teens. Still, he did not have the level of talent as a Lemond or others at that age. He was good, but not that good



Mr. Armstrong's teen coach was Mr. Rick Crawford, who was subsequently fired from his collegiate coaching job, and admitted to doping some of his athletes under his guidance.


"Crawford trained well-known cyclists like Leipheimer, Tom Danielson and Lance Armstrong. He trained Armstrong when he was competing as a triathlete and before he turned to professional cycling."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/...ry-of-rick-crawford/
http://www.denverpost.com/...e-than-a-decade-ago/
Last edited by: wetswimmer99: Feb 16, 17 12:04
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Re: Bad news for Lance [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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Kenney wrote:
Do you know who his coach was as a teen? A guy found guilty of doping American teens. Still, he did not have the level of talent as a Lemond or others at that age. He was good, but not that good

As Lance was doing tri in his teens and Lemond was just riding, it's hard to compare apples with apples. Regardless, Lance was at the top of the open division, as a teen. He at least has to be considered as a credible choice for winning in clean cycling. His attitude for one, tips him over other mere mortals IMHO.

You do make a good point about his coach. I've mentioned here before about my surprise when Ben Johnson was popped for steroids in Soeul. Ben was from my area in Canada. I used to watch him race on the local cable access channel. He was good at 15 and steadily improved into adulthood. He didn't have the fast huge increase in performance that was typical of steroid use. I assumed his gradual improvement hinted that he was clean. I was wrong about that and I could easily be wrong about Lance as a teen.

Has Lance ever admitted doping before he got into cycling? I might have my head in the sand, but the belief was that tri was clean back when Lance was a teen, but everyone knew that cycling was dirty. However, if he got into drugs as a teen and that's why he was so good, then my premise is completely wrong.

TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"
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Re: Bad news for Lance [tridork] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think Lance has even admitted to doping in his early pro cycling career, let alone his triathlon days - his cycling world championship result from 1993 still stands. But then you can't read too much into that, he's fought all the doping accusations every inch of the way so wouldn't be a surprise if he'd only admitted to the minimum that he thought was provable and not the full extent of his doping.

But either way I just don't see triathlon results as a teenager being a serious indicator of having the talent to be a world class cyclist. There's a much bigger talent pool and a lot more money in pro cycling than there is in triathlon, so if being a top junior triathlete was a good pathway to pro cycling you'd expect quite a few athletes to have followed it, but the only 2 I can think of are Armstrong and Richie Porte. The few triathlon bike studs who have tried making the transition haven't had much impact - Spencer Smith was a more successful junior than Lance, winning the ITU senior world champs aged 20, and he achieved very little when he tried his hand at pro cycling. By contrast, plenty of mountain bikers have made a successful transition to road cycling. Cadel Evans, Peter Sagan, Hesjedal, Landis all had success in MTB before turning to the road.
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Re: Bad news for Lance [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]
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I for the life of me cannot figure out how even remotely the USPS can claim fraud. They most certainly received some benefit while Lance was riding and I think an argument could be made that USPS is still receiving a benefit with their almost irrelevant (and insolvent) name being mentioned now.

Actually they may be using this whole lawsuit for the advertising that me as a tax payer is payer for in the this lawsuit. This seems a lot more plausible to me that actually believing they were defrauded.
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Re: Bad news for Lance [JMike] [ In reply to ]
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JMike wrote:
Jason80134 wrote:
Joshawa wrote:
I'm sure he has planned ahead. Say what you want about Lance, but you don't hear anyone calling him dumb.


No doubt.

That said, Win or lose, it costs a fortune to defend yourself against a govt lawsuit.

Glad to see lance bleed some major cash here. Not glad it's all going to a lawyer.


Do you think the lawyers are charging him for the defense? Serious question, not being sarcastic.

That's a serious question? Seriously?

Are you really young? Not from the USA? Have a life/career that is totally sheltered/isolated from the world?
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Re: Bad news for Lance [tridork] [ In reply to ]
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tridork wrote:
Jason80134 wrote:
tridork wrote:
From what I've heard, he was kinda laughing at the beginning, thinking he was on the hook for $30M. then he heard about the triple jeopardy thing and started to crap himself.
Isn't that why he sold up all his stuff to cash up?

Personally I think it would be a travesty if he had to pay up. It wasn't just him doing EPO, it wasn't just him at Tailwind, US Postal really can't show any loss that needs to be compensated for, etc etc.

He's a bad man for sure, but to charge him $100M wouldn't be just in any way. Some fine, and a significant one would be reasonable, but not $100m

Anyone remember Festina? They got away pretty much scott free, so I don't know why Lance should be tarred and feathered.



Without the cheating, Armstrong would not have the money he has. So I'm happy to see him part with all of it.



But we can never be sure. LA was juiced and with as much confidence as we have about that, the rest of the peloton was too. Others on his team made a crapload of money from being part of the ring of cheats
If everyone was clean, including Lance, he'd have won.

Cyclists have been chasing performance enhancing methods (regardless of legality at the time) since the second cyclist hopped on a bike. Caffeine in the early days (cold espresso filled bidons), then they tried tobacco (they thought it made their lungs work harder, lol). After WWII it was benzadrine and other stimulants. They worked their way through steroids, HGH etc, then EPO and other concoctions today. Times haven't got slower, because cyclists aren't any cleaner today than they were in Lance's time or in Simpson's time.

Drugs in cycling isn't going away, it's just getting sneakier. Lance was a very bad man, but he was (for a long time) simply better at hiding it than others. He wasn't alone in cycling, USPS or Tailwind. He shouldn't be punished alone.


Are you saying LA wins the TDF seven times if everyone is "on a level playing field". Highly improbably in my opinion. LA stacked the decks in his favor. Yes, others were cheating, but he took it to the next level. Quite impressive in a genius villain sort of way.

Others were punished. LA is being punished disproportionately in response to his disproportionate aggression in both cheating and "defending" himself.
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Re: Bad news for Lance [tridork] [ In reply to ]
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My basis for saying he'd have won without doping was his past. His national tri champ, as a teen is a good indicator. He did really well, beating established top level pro's long before his drug use.

But he wasn't particularly strong (in terms of the Tour cyclists) in climbing. I think he would have been a good pro but there is no way he would have been anywhere near as dominant with a level playing field.

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Re: Bad news for Lance [Jason80134] [ In reply to ]
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Jason80134 wrote:
JMike wrote:
Jason80134 wrote:
Joshawa wrote:
I'm sure he has planned ahead. Say what you want about Lance, but you don't hear anyone calling him dumb.


No doubt.

That said, Win or lose, it costs a fortune to defend yourself against a govt lawsuit.

Glad to see lance bleed some major cash here. Not glad it's all going to a lawyer.


Do you think the lawyers are charging him for the defense? Serious question, not being sarcastic.

That's a serious question? Seriously?

Are you really young? Not from the USA? Have a life/career that is totally sheltered/isolated from the world?

Jason, thanks for the kind words. My wife and I have been very fortunate and retired at age 46 (me) and 43 (my wife). If you want more information on our backgrounds and our foundation, feel free to PM me.
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Re: Bad news for Lance [JMike] [ In reply to ]
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The funny thing is, like I said above, there are all sorts of ways attorneys may put together an engagement, and yes, attorneys do sometimes work for free or highly discounted rates, even for clients with serous cash. It's not exactly like pro bono (aka for free for someone who might not be able to pay - think charity work) but maybe through some other arrangement where their payment is essentially the exposure they get for the representation (think high profile stuff where the attorneys really want the exposure more than the paycheck and maybe they need to severely cut their rates or whatever to get the business).

Here though, Lance has a team of attorneys from Paul Hastings, which is big time international law firm. These guys get paid big $ for this kind of stuff. At this level, Lance is no bigger, and is in fact much smaller, than most of their other clients which are typically large organizations, corporations, etc.
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Re: Bad news for Lance [GLindy] [ In reply to ]
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GLindy,

Thank you for your input. I have a friend who is a patent attorney and he is of the opinion that he is not being charged with the thought process being 'if we can get this guy off....'

Appreciate your answer.
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Re: Bad news for Lance [JMike] [ In reply to ]
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JMike wrote:
GLindy,

Thank you for your input. I have a friend who is a patent attorney and he is of the opinion that he is not being charged with the thought process being 'if we can get this guy off....'

Appreciate your answer.

That's always a possibility for sure. High profile cases like this get your name as defense counsel plastered around....even on triathlon forums....
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