That's crazy fast. Very impressed.

But not a record?
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/22/sports/for-womens-road-records-only-women-only-races-will-count.html

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'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'

Impressive how close the races were given the speed.

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i will complain about the pacer. i don't think it's appropriate to have a pacer that is not among the class of racers in the race. how would you feel about the same thing in, say, the mile? on the track? 2 or 3 men as rabbits in a womens race?

i know this brings up a lot of questions. when webb broke the high school record, if you're running an open race, should that count? good question.

but since you brought it up, i don't think that's kosher.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

That is why according to the IAAF, Paula Radcliffe owns two marathon world records.

Mixed Gender - 2:15:25
Women Only - 2:17:42

..

If they allow women to run directly behind a male rabbit for the entire race then they should allow men to run directly behind a cyclist or allow a new/fresh rabbit to enter the race every 10k or so.

im not against it. just was hoping to prevent discussion about it. the male marathon WR attempts have pacers, who drop out at the half or 30k mark, yes they are male but running pretty fast. pacers were removed from chicago and the times of the winners have slowed down.

i don't mind women having pacers. they should just be women pacers.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I really don't see the problem with having a male pacer for a women's race, I also don't see a problem with having a cyclist pace a men's race. If we want to see records/faster races, why not have someone who is able to handle/control an accurate pace without a problem.

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"If we want to see records/faster races, why not have someone who is able to handle/control an accurate pace without a problem."

my answer to your question is this: because it's not a record unless it was contested the same basic way as records in the past.

for example, this woman had a pacer the entire way. she had to reach outside the confines of her race for this. the only real equivalent i can think of for male racers is to have (let us say) males begin the race halfway through to keep up the pacing.

one of the charms of world records is that at some point that person has to go it alone. when roger bannister became the first sub-4 minute miler he had pacers, like chris chataway, but everybody knew what wasn't going to last past 3/4 of a mile. there was a point that bannister, if he was going to break that barrier, would have to do it by himself.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Ah I see what you mean now. Okay I agree that males should not pace females. If that happened, we would need to start creating new "world record" categories, which is stupid.

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she run alone for the last 200 m or so does that not count for your definition of running alone at some stage ... ( pink)
what was interesting to watch was how many of them did not try to hide behind the pacer .

The concept of pacers imply that a reasonable amount of environmental assistance is acceptable. At what point in the past were firm rules established about what an acceptable level of assitance is and how was it established the the gender of the pacer crossed that level? I doubt it ever was and would suspect that this precedent was rooted in "keep women out of men's sports," which is hardly a legacy worth keeping.

I can see what you mean - this is somewhat analogous to splitting the Kona field 4 ways, so that the women's fields can have a clean race. Though there is the obvious difference in the fact that the swim and bike are much more disruptive to the pro women in terms of being mixed in with the male AGs. The benefit on the run is much smaller.

I'd be careful with "contested the same basic way as records in the past" - It's a noble ideal, but then you end up requiring historical oddities like a Mercx-specific bike, or perhaps shoes which conform to narrow specifications.

Plus it's not exactly true: the "separate women's field" rule was put in only in 2012. Sure, they went back to see which of the races now met the new rules - but until that point, the rules permitted mixed competitions to stand. (or do i have it backwards?)

"this precedent was rooted in "keep women out of men's sports," which is hardly a legacy worth keeping."

others might say that granting the women's race men to chaperone them through their entire race, for the entertainment of the wealthy men who were watching, speaks of a new disturbingly exploitive turn in women's sport. can we try that out? did you like the way i hijacked women's rights for my own purpose? no? you're right. i don't like it either and i don't believe a word of what i just wrote. just, this is how easy it is.

this has nothing to do with men's attitudes toward women in running. i'll agree not to invoke righteous indignation over women's rights if you will. and then maybe we can get to the root of the question, which is, is it appropriate for records and world bests to be set with this kind of assistance?

if so, then i don't see why a men's record couldn't be set by having a group of rabbits run the first 13 miles of a marathon and then another set of rabbits start fresh and run the second 13 miles.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Piss off. I said "I...suspect..." which you parsed out of my quote so that YOU could feign indignation. Perhaps you were overly sensitive about this because of your failure with women's issues in the past? No? You're right. I don't believe a word of what I just wrote. Just, this is how easy it is.

I asked a simple question: was any real thought put behind this and was there any real discussion on the tolerance for environmental assistance? Or was the decision simply rooted in, as you pointed out, it is just the way it has always been. You seemed content to rest your argument on that, so I had no problem pointing out the flaw. I agree, the root question is what is an acceptable kind of assistance?

The reason you cannot have a rabbit enter mile 13 is because that would be outside interference. That is obvious. Can a wheel chair participant rabbit a men's race? That is what you were looking for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ44mbXQU6k

I guess looking at this it seems like the last world half marathon record had similar support.

How about we get rid of the whole "men vs. women" thing and consider the implications of using a "real" rabbit. An electric motorized pace marker (modified model race car) leading the field. Available to all -genderless - wire to wire - raises everyone's game level. No, it's not the same as records set without it, but then neither are IM records set with digital metrics onboard or NFL helmets with radios or that T&F classic, the fiberglass vaulting pole.

That works great for explicit WR attempts, but most races aren't really run this way. Racers pace so that they can win the race, not necessarily also set a WR. Put another way, you'd rather a 25-50% of winning the race over a 1% chance of setting a WR. If you look at most recent marathon WRs (on the Men's side) and also this one, it's under conditions where a 2nd competitor was pushing the winner to a place where a WR could be set.

Could be useful for the Nike sub 2hr attempt though...

Right Tim - that was what I was generally referring to - pointed attempts at record setting - as was what seemed to be the situation at this event with the male rabbits. The electro-rabbits could be programmed to create certain paces at certain points in the "race" to optimize the results for one specific runner or just to set a WR pace for anyone who could keep in touch. We would soon see what the true Ultimate Speed would be for the runners of today and it could be pushed up as new athletes came in.