Compare your thoughts on health insurance to auto insurance.

What similarities and what differences do you see. Keep in mind I'm talking about this in the concept of insurance, I'm not comparing the person you love with an automobile.

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#WeAreTheForge #BlackGunsMatter

"Look, will you guys at leats accept that you are a bunch of dumb asses and just trust me on this one? Please?" BarryP 7/30/2012

Do you realize you are espousing a conservative ideal but using Bernie Sanders logic? Just wondering?

No, I don't see it. Explain the Bernie Sanders logic for me.

Because as a society we have decided that we are not going to let people die on the sidewalk (metaphorically speaking). So we have already decided as a collective to care for one another.

Well, no we haven't. And people weren't dying on the streets regardless. "Metaphorically" or not, that remains a stupid argument to hang your hat on.

It would be good if as many people as possible could afford their own insurance, and returning to an actual insurance model, rather than the health coverage model we're currently saddled with, would help tremendously in achieving that goal. As to making the entire system as a whole as cost effective as possible, that is something else entirely- not necessary, and not within the government's authority.

People who legitimately can't afford even catastrophic health insurance can have that provided to them. It doesn't require forcing everyone else to buy it. The vast majority of people would purchase it, because most people are actually capable of running their own lives like adults. And those who aren't should face the consequences of their irresponsibility- in the form of a big medical bill.


I'll add that it is amazing how Liberal EVERYONE becomes when the need health care...

No idea what you're talking about with that addition.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I don't take issue form a cost benefit perspective to abortion or birth control being funded by gov't. I think it is a net savings personally. But a lot of people have moral obligations to it. I'm not hampered by such nonsense because I don't value human life beyond my immediate family in general.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Or pain, suffering and death. Why is that a bad thing? Why should somebody's poor decisions incur costs on the rest of society. Yes, there is grey area, but there is plenty of black and white instances that should void any sort of public assistance.

1. The otherwise healthy 20 year old who smokes and drinks who foregoes insurance because it isn't a priority or cost too much to them, but ends up it the emergency room after walking in front of a vehicle, or playing rugby on the weekend. Why should they we concern ourselves with that person?

2. My dad, who after repeated warnings about protecting his feet due to diabetes induced circulation issues had two visits two injuries with repeated visits on your dime to attempt to save his leg. He didn't learn after the first surgery and did the same stupid thing that resulted in one amputation prior. Why should we pay for that? Better yet, if we have to, why didn't they do amputation on the first visit?

People learn from traumatic events or paying for their stupid decisions. I got a DUI and never drove drunk again. As a strong man, I had high blood pressure and cholesterol problems, I started eating better and did triathlons to lose weight. Why should I pay for people who when given the same warning do nothing?

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

My friend is small business owner and the cost of his personal insurance skyrocketed. His policy now costs more than his mortgage and his deductible is about $12k.

Yup. But hey, as a 46 year old man I'm sure happy that I now have contraception covered.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

Our small company (and its 34 employees) lost its health insurance plan. Aetna terminated the plan with a technicality: it was a "catastrophic coverage" plan that was purchased from Mutual of Omaha in the early 80s when our company was proprietorship with five employees (two being the owners, the other three being janitors). Said company soon thereafter became an LLC. I'm assuming that the owners purchased the policy through the proprietorship for tax purposes. I have no idea. Anyways, under the ACA, said plan was classified as a luxury-personal plan or some BS. I still have the 34 page letter from Aetna. Given the language in that letter I'm assuming they had someone from their legal department draft it.

Now we're stuck with a shit plan from Florida Blue that costs more and provides way, way less. Thanks Obama.

You're lying. Obama said you could keep you plan if you liked it.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

I guess that makes my anecdote "fake news" or an "alternative fact"

It also makes you racist.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

You can argue that we shouldn't cover these events all you want, the fact is we have decided we are going to. The debate over ideology is over.

I believe "alternative fact" is much more socially acceptable.

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#WeAreTheForge #BlackGunsMatter

"Look, will you guys at leats accept that you are a bunch of dumb asses and just trust me on this one? Please?" BarryP 7/30/2012

I would love to hear you explain this.

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#WeAreTheForge #BlackGunsMatter

"Look, will you guys at leats accept that you are a bunch of dumb asses and just trust me on this one? Please?" BarryP 7/30/2012

Fair point, and we will until a majority find they are paying for somebody else to have coverage that is better than theirs.

I don't know how many times I've heard somebody say "not only am I paying more for insurance, but paying more out of pocket to go to the doctor than I did". Well that is causing some to go naked (illegally) on insurance or get the insurance but never go to the doctor. But if trailer trash tina and her kids get to go to the doctor for virtually nothing, because they have free subsidized health care, you will find an eventual revolt. Why do you think Obamacare is crumbling so quickly? Because more and more middle class people are falling in the above category. They can't afford to go to the doctor so that other people who don't make enough money can.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Of course it does. I'm not a Democrat therefore, automatically, I'm a racist. It's physics.

People without insurance show up in the ER with late stage cancer or other terminal diseases that would have been treatable with earlier detection and intervention (which they couldn't afford). Catastrophic health insurance wouldn't have done jack shit for them. People without insurance show up with serious dental issues that lead to all sorts of other continuing, expensive, debilitating medical conditions. But hey, they've got catastrophic coverage, so they are good to go. People without insurance have trouble treating diabetes, so they end up getting amputations and losing their sight. But who cares? They have catastrophic insurance, so it won't bankrupt them (they have no money, in any case).

So, yeah, we are letting people die on the (metaphoric) street.

Cost effectiveness is within the government's authority, unless you think that government shouldn't be a last resort in saving people's lives. If government safety nets are to keep people from dying or facing bankruptcy, then it is indeed in the government's interest to ensure that costs are effectively controlled.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Ok but here it is: first I believe you. I really do think that you only want coverage you paid for and you would not accept anything you didn't pay for. But if I lump you, Cruse, old Hickory and vetus into one group I would be shocked if there isn't 1 (probably 2, possibly 3) who are paying less than $2,900 per year in Medicare tax but all 4 of you will go ahead and suck the government teet if you need dialysis every week for the last 10 years of your life. So you have no coalition. I mean it is easy to pick on Trailer Trash Tina, but for your system to really work you have to go after Lung Transplant Larry. And Lung Transplant Larry will only side with you up to the point when he needs that Lung Transplant. He will then exercise his religious obligation to delay returning Home for as long as possible.

(By the way, I am glad we have moved past the cadillac driving welfare queen and on to trailer trash tina, PC wins again!).

Agree, we will now have the Cruz & Sanders Health Care Plan.
We should have more debates like this.

Ken I tried to explain it in terms he would understand and it blew right by him. Now you want to provide the technicalities?

"we have decided as a society that we are not going to allow people to die on the sidewalk...
no we haven't and besides no one is dying on the sidewalk."

we have laws that say people will be treated regardless of their ability to pay. Or, in other words - nobody will be denied care. I think that's what he's referring to.

So yes...that does mean we've decided that this is a given. Now we're only arguing about how we pay for it all. Unless you want to change existing law...which is always an option.

Ken I tried to explain it in terms he would understand and it blew right by him.

I'm dumb. (So dumb I still haven't figured out what you meant when you said I'm using Bernie Sanders logic.)

How is cost effectiveness of the entirety of the health care system within the government's authority to regulate, to the degree that it justifies the government either forcing everyone to buy health insurance, or simply providing health care to everyone?

I understand that some people cannot afford to pay for their own health insurance. I don't have a problem with providing those people basic health care. Just because we're going to take care of people who legitimately can't provide for themselves does not justify a massive takeover of everyone's health care.

Here's what I would like to see: A return to a system of health insurance, rather than health coverage. People could choose to buy it or not, but generally speaking it would cover catastrophic health events, and people would pay for their own minor and routine health costs out of pocket. People who are too poor to provide for themselves would have their basic health care provided for them. If you're not too poor to provide insurance for yourself, and you fail to do so and then have some major medical issue, you're on the hook for that. We'll provide emergency care, but you get billed, and if you lose your house over it, that's your problem.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

This is an example of anecdotal (hearsay) vs actual data . . . this article (which I don't necessarily believe) suggests premiums/costs have gone down since ACA: My point being I tend to believe actual data over anecdotal accounts.

http://www.cnbc.com/...fect-study-says.html

Thank you

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#WeAreTheForge #BlackGunsMatter

"Look, will you guys at leats accept that you are a bunch of dumb asses and just trust me on this one? Please?" BarryP 7/30/2012

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"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

Bullshit. I shopped for plans for my employees. I know multiple self employed people whonsaid what they paid before and after. And let's also account for the fact deductibles and out of pockets are higher.

Now cost for service may have gone down on more things. I don't pay a deductible on annual visits. I think Obgyn visits are to. That probably accounts for most non emergency non elective visits. But emergency room visits up. I paid 4k out of pocket when I broke my shoulder. Despite no cast. But did have a hospital stay and stitches. I can say for certain I have never paid that neither has my wife who has spent nights in the hospital as did my youngest son pre Obamacare effect.

So I don't but it at all. I think they are being selective or accounting for the fact more people are seeing doctors that are covered. And I don't know. If Bearly half aren't paying taxes. Are half getting subsidies and does that account here as well?

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden