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Challenge Going to 20m Draft for World Championship
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Re: Challenge Going to 20m Draft for World Championship [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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So, 20m for a single race in Slovakia Jun 2017?! Wouldn't be a bad rule for pros at Kona, but it is not technically possible to enforce such a rule for age groupers at Kona given the numbers coming out of the water in close proximity to each other unless WTC would go to wave starts or some such to spread the field more.
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Re: Challenge Going to 20m Draft for World Championship [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Have they increased the time you have to pass through the draft zone? I would assume that would be a must, when you have lengthened the draft zone by 66%... I like the idea, although in an AG context, it will be very difficult to fairly enforce (and doing so drastically increases the number of motos needed for officials on the course)...
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Re: Challenge Going to 20m Draft for World Championship [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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I don't care as much about what the distance in the rule is as I do about whatever it is being enforced.

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Re: Challenge Going to 20m Draft for World Championship [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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challenge can go to a 50m draft zone. it's not going to make any difference. challenge needs to fix whatever brand issues it has that keeps people from entering the races in sufficient numbers (in the western hemisphere). challenge needs to present a package to RDs where the expenses to the RDs scale up or down as the race scales in size.

it's hard being a race organizer. it's hard getting a brand off the ground. but continuing to expand the draft zone is not the solution. that's not the press message challenge most urgently needs to send.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Challenge Going to 20m Draft for World Championship [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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challenge can go to a 50m draft zone. it's not going to make any difference

________

But what problem are you trying to solve? It's already been proven 20m zone has made for more "fair" racing (pros already stated this), so yes I think it can be implemented for pros at races, even IM.


That's irrelevant to the issue you expanded on with Challenge and it's marketability issues. ETA: Are you saying it's not going to matter what the draft zone when no US athletes go to Challenge's "world championship"? Sure I'll give you that, and if it's filled with Europeans. Good on them. Does Challenge need the American market if they have their niche in Europe? Seems they gave it a try, and failed pretty epicly.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Jan 26, 17 9:28
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Re: Challenge Going to 20m Draft for World Championship [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
I don't care as much about what the distance in the rule is as I do about whatever it is being enforced.

Based on what I heard from the pros racing in Bahrain and Dubai - when those were Challenge races, enforcement actually becomes a relatively trivial concern because the packs never actually form. In other words, the need to rigidly enforce the 12m zone (or 10m or 7m) is largely a byproduct of that zone offering a meaningful advantage. With that said, the pancake flat courses with (I believe) high winds were the ideal scenario for a 20m zone - topography presents a real challenge to a distance-based zone that becomes more challenging the longer the zone gets.

As you're well aware, the draft benefit is not linear. It's cubic. At least once the rider in front starts to impact the trailing riders CdA. So the difference between 11m and 12m is significant. So you need to really be on enforcement. Add in the passing dynamics of a large group of riders that are spaced at 12m, and suddenly, you have an even larger impact. The difference between 20m and even 18m is not nearly as significant. Both are "far enough." And you also preclude a lot of the echeloning that occurs with a pack.

As I've elaborated numerous times before - not interested in rehashing that discussion here, I'm not saying that the 20m cures all ills or is without its own issues. BUT, at least based on the number of times where it has been used, enforcement does not SEEM to actually be a major issue. The length of the zone seems to necessarily mitigate the need for rigid enforcement.

Maybe Herbert can chime in. But the same caliber of field that would have ridden together for close to 56mi in most races was, according to what he saw, blown apart within the first 5mi (or less) with the 20m zone.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Challenge Going to 20m Draft for World Championship [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Why is the draft zone a distance rather then a time gap? As a athlete, I can't measure 12m or 20m while on the bike. I do, however, have a stopwatch. Similarly, I suspect officials rely on perceived speed and measure the time gap to check distances, the combination of which leads to inaccuracies in measurement. A 1.5s time gap is just over 20m for someone traveling at 30mph and over 13 for someone traveling at 20mph. Since the size of the draft zone scales with speed, it seems like there would be an optimal time that would work for most speeds an athlete would experience on a course.
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Re: Challenge Going to 20m Draft for World Championship [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Is it really necessary? This Wind Tunnel Test, while not conclusive (they couldn't measure at 12M because the tunnel was too short, so they extrapolated), suggests that the 12M draft zone rule works exactly as intended.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
Last edited by: gary p: Jan 26, 17 12:49
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Re: Challenge Going to 20m Draft for World Championship [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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gary p wrote:
Is it really necessary? This Wind Tunnel Test, while not conclusive (they couldn't measure at 12M because the tunnel was too short, so they extrapolated), suggests that the 12M draft zone rule works exactly as intended.

Yes Specialized did a little experiment but, the devil is in the details. Specialized did no measurements beyond 8 meters and inferred beyond that. More importantly, they did not measure the force on a rider but instead used a pitot tube at bar level to infer the drag. So there were really too many guesses involved for one to trust the outcome.

If you want to read about testing that involved actual testing of the power required to follow at 12 meters see Alex's excellent blog. http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com.au/...2/pour-me-draft.html

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Challenge Going to 20m Draft for World Championship [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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gary p wrote:
Is it really necessary? This Wind Tunnel Test, while not conclusive (they couldn't measure at 12M because the tunnel was too short, so they extrapolated), suggests that the 12M draft zone rule works exactly as intended.

The problem is not the 12m, the problem is being able to eye-ball and space 12m. Could it be 10, or 9 at time??? If so, wouldn't be easier to just do 20m. If they are at 17m who cares, that is still well above 12m.


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Re: Challenge Going to 20m Draft for World Championship [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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I've listened to LS on I think 4 different podcasts now and that's pretty much what he seems to suggest. Essentially what do you want from the bike? 25 people coming into T2 together or an actual "non draft" effort. But it seems IM rules seems to blend together now so that LC is turning into an train into T2. And yes at times it'll be course dependent, but I think his greater point is: is there an fairer length that can be used. Obviously 100m isn't realistic, but since 20m has been done before it sorta opens up Pandora's box to ask why not more 20m races.

At 10m, you cant tell if it's 9.85m or 10.01m, and so he thinks at times the officials "swallow their whistle" so to speak afraid to mess up a race on a tight call.

Move it to 20m and suddenly 19.2m isn't as big of an adverse issue. Which goes to what Rapp says, at that point it's not about "eyeballing" the draft zone as simply over view from officials pov.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Challenge Going to 20m Draft for World Championship [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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So many complain, but how many have become an official? I have sat on the back of a moto and trust me it is not as easy as many want to make it!!

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Challenge Going to 20m Draft for World Championship [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
I have sat on the back of a moto and trust me it is not as easy as many want to make it!!

It's not that bad. Just make sure you hold on tight and, chances are, you won't fall off …

http://powerful-problem-solving.com
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Re: Challenge Going to 20m Draft for World Championship [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]
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imswimmer328 wrote:
Why is the draft zone a distance rather then a time gap? As a athlete, I can't measure 12m or 20m while on the bike. I do, however, have a stopwatch. Similarly, I suspect officials rely on perceived speed and measure the time gap to check distances, the combination of which leads to inaccuracies in measurement. A 1.5s time gap is just over 20m for someone traveling at 30mph and over 13 for someone traveling at 20mph. Since the size of the draft zone scales with speed, it seems like there would be an optimal time that would work for most speeds an athlete would experience on a course.

A 1.5s time gap is about right. The issue, though, is how much of a margin of error do you give. 0.1s? That's pretty tight for a dude on the back on a moto banging the "split" button on a stopwatch.

The advantages of a time gap, of course, is that course topography does not impact it. It appropriately compresses the zone on the uphills and expands it on the downhills.

I am not opposed, by any means, to a time-based zone. The issue is mostly that - as of right now - I have not seen compelling evidence that it's realistic to expect the sort of resolution required given the circumstances of how races unfold. You look at events that are hand timed. I can't think of even one that comes close to the equivalent of a guy hanging onto the back of a motorcycle at 25mph+.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Challenge Going to 20m Draft for World Championship [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Good point, in the briefing packs Challenge will be placing 20m markings on the road to help with the spacing issues. As the course is pancake flat its good to see that they are making an effort to break the packs. Along with swim starts 10 mins apart I am looking forward to this event.
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Re: Challenge Going to 20m Draft for World Championship [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
challenge can go to a 50m draft zone. it's not going to make any difference

________

But what problem are you trying to solve? It's already been proven 20m zone has made for more "fair" racing (pros already stated this), so yes I think it can be implemented for pros at races, even IM.


That's irrelevant to the issue you expanded on with Challenge and it's marketability issues. ETA: Are you saying it's not going to matter what the draft zone when no US athletes go to Challenge's "world championship"? Sure I'll give you that, and if it's filled with Europeans. Good on them. Does Challenge need the American market if they have their niche in Europe? Seems they gave it a try, and failed pretty epicly.

I know we are going to veer a bit off topic but Dan started it so I'll blame him. ;-)

Yes, Challenge crashed and burned in spectacular fashion in North America. They're still riding out a few races but nobody gives a shit. They are, and always will be, a non-entity on this side of the world.

They're also pretty much wasting their time in South America and Asia-Pacific. Nobody really gives a shit in those places either.

They do well in Europe. They don't pull WTC kind of numbers at races (exception to Roth) but it's a nice niche they have carved out. The problem is they're going to get flanked and squeezed by WTC (already happening) which is going to be hard to fend off in the long term. I just don't think the European market is anywhere near as important and influential as the North American market, and especially the emerging Asian market. WTC has or is going to have a stranglehold on Asia and North America. That's already a checkmate scenario.

If I'm WTC, and I'm set on world domination, I completely take the Asia-Pacific market first. Now you totally control China, Japan, Australia, and New Zealand. You already have North and South America. That leaves Europe as your battleground. I like the European race directors hesitance in giving into WTC as easily as they did in North America. So it should be interesting how this all plays out over the next few years. Ultimately, I'm not sure Challenge can put up much of a fight but I think a lot of that will be on WTC's level of interest in actually wanting to dominate the European market. They might do so well in Asia that it doesn't matter much to them.

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Re: Challenge Going to 20m Draft for World Championship [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Agree 100%, lots of commenting around these rules, but not many signing up to become officials (it's not as easy as you would think, but I can guarantee that it would be infinitely harder with time based draft zones). If you think distance based draft zones are hard to measure, just wait if the switch were made to time based... assuming that every racer is traveling at a slightly different speed, you would need a radar gun and a stop watch as an official to establish what is and isn't drafting. It would look very arbitrary too, since depending on the speeds of racers involved, what would be drafting for one set of people, would not for others... As a racer, I get it, it can be hard to visualize 12m (I don't find it that hard while racing), but your guess at that distance will likely be far more consistent than your quick guestimation math on time based draft zones... Further, blocking becomes a real issue, because it's hard to be looking forwards managing your draft zone, and to look back to see the relative speed of someone approaching, to make sure you're not accidentally blocking them...

To be honest, when I've officiated on the bike course from a moto, most of the drafting issues stem from overcrowding courses. In those situations, many people just don't make an effort not to draft, so you get these loose packs forming... Having more moto officials does act as more of a deterrent (actually media motos help too, since racers hear a moto, but can't tell if it's an official or a camera coming...), but does increase race costs (extra officials, moto drivers, gas, etc.) as well so there needs to be a balance...
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Re: Challenge Going to 20m Draft for World Championship [Trauma] [ In reply to ]
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Trauma wrote:
Agree 100%, lots of commenting around these rules, but not many signing up to become officials (it's not as easy as you would think, but I can guarantee that it would be infinitely harder with time based draft zones). If you think distance based draft zones are hard to measure, just wait if the switch were made to time based... assuming that every racer is traveling at a slightly different speed, you would need a radar gun and a stop watch as an official to establish what is and isn't drafting. It would look very arbitrary too, since depending on the speeds of racers involved, what would be drafting for one set of people, would not for others... As a racer, I get it, it can be hard to visualize 12m (I don't find it that hard while racing), but your guess at that distance will likely be far more consistent than your quick guestimation math on time based draft zones... Further, blocking becomes a real issue, because it's hard to be looking forwards managing your draft zone, and to look back to see the relative speed of someone approaching, to make sure you're not accidentally blocking them...

To be honest, when I've officiated on the bike course from a moto, most of the drafting issues stem from overcrowding courses. In those situations, many people just don't make an effort not to draft, so you get these loose packs forming... Having more moto officials does act as more of a deterrent (actually media motos help too, since racers hear a moto, but can't tell if it's an official or a camera coming...), but does increase race costs (extra officials, moto drivers, gas, etc.) as well so there needs to be a balance...

Great post.

A lot of "officials" at races, USAT or WTC, really have not raced much, or some, at all. Now some have done it for years, but a lot are just folks trying to help. Do I really want
one of these folks to ruin my day that I may have spend months training for? And as you say, MOST happen in overcrowded courses, and from what I have seen, flat ones.
As I post all the time, if the RD makes a race that is basically a draft legal event by how they set it up, well, ... If a RD REALLY cared about not having drafting, you would see this by how many they allowed to register, what type of wave starts they do, and if the course have some great tough hills. If not, well, ....

When I am out there, the drafting I see falls into 2 types. One is folks are just riding along, and maybe within the draft "zone". IMO, who cares. But, the person that is hugging the wheel of the person in front of them, and just sits there, well, they should be nailed.

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Re: Challenge Going to 20m Draft for World Championship [Trauma] [ In reply to ]
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The time to pass is now 40 Seconds

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