What was your dad's position on Lord Hee Haw? Was it the same you had/have vis a vis Ms. Fonda?

"I don't think she's ever shown adequate remorse for her conduct during the Vietnam war."

What do you expect her to do - get down on her knees. Jane apologized for her comments about the POWs several times. At that time she was a young women wrapped up in her 60's passion against the war and was duped by the Cong when she went to Hanoi. She owes no other apology for the rest of her anti war sentiment any more than does anybody else who was against that war. She did a lot of positive stuff since then, especially when compared with many other Hollywood brats who became total zeroes. .

I don't expect a whole lot, and as I said, it's been nearly 50 years, and it's never been personal to me.

I also said that I don't like parsing someone's apology. But I also recognize it's quite easy to give what may or may not be a sincere apology in a media interview that is also self-serving.

She may have been young and stupid. But her actions had real consequences and caused real damage. I would think people with resources like her would do more than a few media interviews if they were truly remorseful. As I had mentioned, how about dedicating time and some of those resources to help veterans. There are all kinds of causes that she could get involved in. It's not like she doesn't have any time and isn't politically active. She just prioritizes those other causes and issues over making amends. Again, and not to parse too much, but it's not something you typically see from someone who is truly remorseful.

Take Michael Vick as an example. Did some pretty despicable shit. But he also got involved in causes directly related to animal welfare. Whether he was sincere in that or merely trying to get back into other's good graces is largely beside the point. It very well may have just been PR. But it was the right and obvious move to make from a PR standpoint.

Fonda hasn't done anything close to that.

" Was it the same you had/have vis a vis Ms. Fonda? "

Talked to my dad numerous times about Nam over the years. Unofficially at the time he was never in support of that war, but as a senior military man in the Canadian military working so close with Americans in NATO while in Europe, he had to tow the official line and pretend to be in support of the war because that's what was required although it had nothing to do with Canada. In fact, draft dodgers we're moving to Canada in droves. He's always said that he's glad I wasn't required to go or have to make that decision. He knew one of my American high school friends that was killed there and like me, considers it a total waste for nothing I don't know what his opinion on Jane is, and doubt he would even have one at this stage at age 92, but he and my mom enjoyed "On Golden Pond" very much when it first came out. They were always big Henry Fonda fans.

Comparing her to Vick is totally absurd. She's said she was sorry for her comments about the POWs but not for being against the Viet Nam war. That's fair and that's all she can do. She moved on and did a lot of other good stuff with her life. Look at the over all picture, not just a month or two out of her life.

And yet I asked about Lord Haw Haw and your dad. His opinion of Jane Fonda is immaterial in some sense, but his thoughts on Lord Haw Haw and how they compare (most likely) to your position on Jane Fonda would probably be informative to you.

I think you missed my point.

Vick apologized too. He also did something about it. Fonda apologized (while gathering good PR at the time) and never did anything about it.

Yes, it's fair to judge someone on their entire life and not just stupid shit, albeit incredibly stupid shit, they did when they were young. (In this case, "young" for Fonda was 34 years old.) So for Fonda, based on her entire life, you have Vietnam being weighed against all her other causes. I don't know how that adds up. But when you add "Electric Horseman" to the equation, fuck that bitch.

Edit to add: regardless of how you consider her overall, I believe it's still fair to criticize her conduct in Hanoi and question the sincerity of her apologies.

She was quite the looker back in the 60's.

Absurd, I agree, they are both paid entertainers, though one's job is a lot more dangerous, one basically committed treason or was near that line in a time of war the other was involved in dog fighting. One contributed to the emotional and physical detriment to our military men at a time of war, the other caused physical and physiological harm to domestic animals. I agree, it's not a fair comparison, what Fonda did was much worse.

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#WeAreTheForge #BlackGunsMatter

"Look, will you guys at leats accept that you are a bunch of dumb asses and just trust me on this one? Please?" BarryP 7/30/2012

What was it about Electric Horseman that got a little tweaked?

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#WeAreTheForge #BlackGunsMatter

"Look, will you guys at leats accept that you are a bunch of dumb asses and just trust me on this one? Please?" BarryP 7/30/2012

Whose actions were worse Jane Fonda or Michael Vick?

that, and forge's relationship with his dad

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

If you go back and read my posts, you'll note I never said you did support her comments. I'm telling you my opinion on her so-called "regret." And I get that the war was unpopular, and I don't have a problem voicing with people exercising their free speech to oppose a war. What I find completely beyond the pale is being photographed in an enemy weapon system that very well may have killed Americans, and saying that the POWs were liars and hypocrites.

ETA: I notice that you are absolutely refusing to answer how you would feel if a Canadian took similar actions during WWII. You seem to keep wanting to answer questions you were never asked, like how your dad felt about Viet Nam, but that's not what is being asked. If there was a pic of a Canadian sitting in a German anti-aircraft gun during WWII, would you feel that person just made a minor mistake and should be forgiven for all the other good stuff they may have done?

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

" I notice that you are absolutely refusing to answer how you would feel if a Canadian took similar actions during WWII."

Well for a start WWII was entirely different from Viet Nam. Not even a reasonable comparison can be made. Virtually everybody was in favor of WWII although support for the war in Europe by the USA was far from universal until Pearl Harbor from what I understand. I'm sure there were people who were against the WWII and pro German/Japanese sympathizers in both countries. Those people were often locked up or interned AFAIK. We weren't in Viet Nam so there is no real answer to your question as the two wars just can't be compared. In retrospect what Jane did and said in Hanoi was not appropriate IMHO but she was never arrested or tried upon return to the USA so it must have been legal.

" I asked about Lord Haw Haw "

Who is Lord Haw Haw? I have no idea who you are talking about.

Popularity of the war has nothing to do with it. The question is whether or not aiding and abetting an enemy in wartime is beyond the pale or not, and in my opinion it is. Whether or not she was arrested also zero to do with whether or not her actions were legal.

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

I have no love for the Vietnam war. Think it was based on a flawed paradigm of communist containment by military means. But you don't got to the heart of the enemy and pose with their weapons of war and perpetuate their propaganda of good treatment of POWs. Just like you don't spit on returning soldiers who in many cases were draftees, there without any belief in the cause.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

" Whether or not she was arrested also zero to do with whether or not her actions were legal. "

Totally confused by this statement. If her actions were illegal don't you think she would have been arrested.

 


I don't disagree.

No, I don't. The unpopularity of the war coupled with her celebrity status would have made a trial for treason an utter circus, and my guess is nobody wanted that. There is a lot of discretion in our system whether or not to bring charges against somebody, especially for something like treason.

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

This is not directed at your comment - but at the time J. Fonda made that trip, any commitments to Vietnam, whether to prosecute that war or prosecute J. Fonda had pretty much passed. And, every political side had thoroughly abused any and all available American POW's and returning vets for their own propaganda - it was a sickening time. BTW, as a side note, I am of that age that I received a draft notice and a draft number based on my birth date (a number I'll never forget), and how I sweated out a year wondering if I was going to be sent to fight a war we were not committed to winning, or if I was to run off to some foreign land.

Don't forget, that as absurd as it now seems, Nam was never officially declared as a war, to my understanding because it would have been in violation of the Geneva convention and probably was a political attempt to appease the American public. I'm not a lawyer, but since there was officially no war then there were no restrictions on American citizens travelling to Hanoi so its fair to assume that Fonda did nothing illegal under American law. Had war been officially declared, then probably it could have been considered and act of treason. I can't see Fonda's celebrity having anything to do with her not being charged. It was just a case of her not breaking the law. She pissed some people off and hurt feelings, but you can't send anyone to trial just for those reasons.

Google him. Your dad probably supported the outcome.

Which is why I specifically asked about your Dad in the RAF or RCAF and Lord Haw Haw and his actions. Basically an apples to apples comparison of actions to remove your wiggle room.