I know/knew both pretty well. My Dad died in 2013 at the age of 78 from a heart attack. One minute getting ready for bed, the next dead. It was really hard on my Mom. They were to celebrate 60 years together the year my Dad died. He had triple bypass 25 years earlier, too much smoking and not enough exercise. The doctors at that time told him he had a couple years to live and that only 50% of his heart was working. The last 25 years of his life he became a pretty darn happy guy. Sold his business and he and my Mom did a ton of volunteer work. Traveling all over the world with the Lion's Club. In my youth he and I did NOT get a long. He was bossy and arrogant and so was I. In the past 15 - 20 years the relationship became really good. He was always there for me, even when we didn't get a long. When I look back, the guy was a great father. It just took me a long time to figure it out.

My Mom is now 82 and hits the gym every morning to walk a couple miles and lift weights. She is in great shape and still drives herself around the states of South Dakota, Minnesota and Iowa to see family and friends. It took her a year or two to get past my Dad's death, but she is now back on her feet volunteering all over the place. If we call it is always more likely we get her answering machine. She's a pretty cool lady. My 11-year-old son wants her to buy his clothes because, as he says; grandma gets it.

Growing up I had 5 brothers and sisters so getting to know my parents was hard. I was the youngest and my Dad worked a lot. Mom began working at the school as the Business Manager when I hit junior high so that helped. My brother and I were the last of the kids so in our high school years, when everyone else had graduated we got to spend a lot of one on one time with Mom. My Dad had a temper, but that came from his father and growing up in rural South Dakota as a kid of a farmer when times were tough. Still recall the story my Dad told of my grandfather shooting his new puppy in front of him. The dog had chased a chicken and my grandfather got angry enough that he grabbed his shotgun, grabbed my Dad and took him outside to have him watch. My Dad was 5-years-old when the event happened. He still talked about it in his later years. I recall my grandfather as not the nicest man in the world. And knowing him gave us kids a pretty good idea of where some of my Dad's more unlikeable traits came from.

Agreed. The why ceases to matter when the relationship is historically and predictably toxic. Not that I suspect you feel any remorse for the decision or need validation, but I'd handle it exactly the same way. My family and its well being comes first, my own emotional health included. You're either an asset or a liability, and life's to short for toxic liabilities, regardless of how fate and circumstance first tied you together.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Exactly. There are components I could do better with. There's still a lot of pent up rage, but I'm finally doing something about that. I have a giant spiteful streak that would like nothing better than to have the opportunity to hurt the other, twist the knife, and see them broken. Not really healthy.

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If I don't, who will? -Me
It's like being bipolar in opinion is a requirement around here. -TripleThreat

By saving it all up to unload here...?

My grand parents were very very different people. My fraternal grand father was a dictatorial bully and my grand mother was his slave. I am 99% certain he was a sexual deviant. My father wouldn't allow us to be on our own with him. My paternal grand parents were devoted to one another and following an 8 year separation due to 2nd world war they never spent a night apart from each other. They taught me everything I know about humanity, decency and love. They were very poor but I spent the holidays with them by choice. They were good loving grand parents.

My mother is the worst parent I know. She beat us for any reason whatsoever. She is alive but I have no contact with her at all. My father is a wonderful person and I am very close to him but he isn't a great parent. He had 3 jobs simultaneously as we grew up, partly to avoid my mother. It was a loveless marriage which he eventually left 20 years too late. I had a good education and escaped as soon as I was 18.

I have 3 kids, the eldest is the reason I have no contact with my mother. I hope I am everything my mother wasn't. I have a brother who I am exceptionally close to and we have some fantastic memories with our grand parents.

My dad is seriously ill and doesn't have much time left. I would like to ask him why he didn't leave my mother earlier and take us into a loving home but I won't because I know he did his best. My kids adore him and nothing gives me greater pleasure than watching him teaching them something or playing adventure games. He has an infectuous laugh.

I recently found how much he is worth and it is jaw dropping. I wish he had spent it on himself instead of saving it all to pass on to me and my brother.

Surely you could ask him that in a way that makes it about your love for him, rather than implying he let you down.

"Dad, we know you did it really tough for us and we respect that. But you deserved so much more. Why did you not think about moving on? We would have loved to join you and watch you smile more" etc?

Not saying they're the words but surely it can be done in a way that doesn't make him feel bad.

In any case it's nice you have a lot of love for him.

I had great parents. They where both from Europe-Italy and France. We always had great food, gardens, and celebrations. We would pile into our 56 Chevy and head to vacations-2 grandparents, 2 parents, 3 kids and the dog. We would waterski, hike, play mini golf. My mother thought it important to have a musical education, dance and sports. We were on swim teams (this is the 50s), had horses and high end bikes. My father smoked himself to death-died at 57, my mother is 92, lives in the house I was raised, has all her marbles.
I'm writing this thinking why I was so estranged from her for such a long time. My sister has been anorexic for 50 years, my brother is wonderful with a very stressful family life. So, I guess it depends on whose eyes and one's interpretation.

So, was it weird growing up with a gyno for a dad? Did you teased pretty good about that or was it a secret?

My parents are both deceased but I feel that I knew them both very well. I'm one of eleven kids in our family and they both worked hard and sacrificed quite a bit to raise us and make time for us. I don't think I fully understood/appreciated that until I was in college (I worked to put myself through) that I started to understand just how the hell they were able to do it in providing for us.

My dad could be hard to get to know because he could be pretty reserved at times and not say much (I tend to be the same way) but once he did open up had some pretty good stories about growing up during the Depression and then serving in the Pacific on a B-24 during WW2 (he didn't get into some of the darker stories until the last few years of his life). I was very close with both of them the last 20 years or so of their lives and am glad that my daughter got to know her grandparents before they passed.

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"You can never win or lose if you don't run the race." - Richard Butler

Nah I just told them I spent summer holidays going to work with dad.

He thinks he let us down but I have had a conversation about him doing his best which is good enough for me.

We recently found out his grand father was a bigamist and we have had a great time doing the genealogy. My grand father would be turning in his grave if he knew.

Probably the most interesting thread I've read here in some time. I wonder if the responses have made anyone reflect on their own patterns of behavior and family dynamics, now that they're the parent in the relationship.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Wow-I agree, very interesting post. Now I feel like I came from a well balanced family! Dad died of cancer in his fifties-divorced from mom 16 years earlier and I never saw him until a month before he died(my sister secretly had a long term relationship with him without letting me know). Mom and dad both alcoholic but functional, just absent. As I get older, it is just so sad. Dad got remarried to a wonderful person. I hear all these things about him that I never knew, from my sister. My maternal grandparents made it clear they did not care for me at all-due to the fact I sounded and looked like my dad(who hates a kid for that?)
Anyway-after much reflection over the years-mom died 20 years ago-I didn't know them at all. Not as adults being able to get past all the bullshit from childhood. It is just me and my sister now-she lives in the past 90% of the time, and is depressive. Functional, again, works 3 jobs to pay her health insurance premium. She is grief stricken losing her 32 yo son last year(only child).
My brother I haven't spoken to in 20 years. Hopefully he is alive. Tried to contact his adult children but not successful.
At times, I feel like I have no history-no roots. And apparently that is good in a lot of ways.
I have been married 25 years with lots of ups and downs esp the last several years. But, at the end of the day, I am so lucky. Not having a father around had me decide on very clear qualities I wanted in a life partner which I have. Having an alcoholic absent mother made me develop a back bone, independence and strength.
I do wish I knew them better.

I'm certainly trying to have a closer relationship with my kids than I feel I had with my own father. Currently it's tough because I'm in a drawn out estranged relationship and my focus is generally diverted but I'm ever mindful of it.

I guess the catalyst was seeing the way my parents bicker and wondering why the hell they can get so worked up over stupid things, particularly my father. Made me think he needs therapy and wondering what one might learn from the experience.

Thinking about ones mortality and how precious time/life is also plays a key. Regret is a horrible, preventable thing.

ETA: another trigger is that in my own situation the depression from the relationship (or lack thereof) results in me letting myself down in many aspects of life. I'd hate to think that if I was hit by a car and killed tomorrow that people close to me would have no idea what was driving those actions. It's a bit of a morbid thread derail but I've also thought about making videos for my kids for them to view later in life; just in case.

But if my inner demons are causing undesirable consequences then surely it's the reason for similar actions in others. Talking it out may help reconcile many things.

"I do wish I knew them better"

Exactly the reason for the thread.

Obviously the other party has to be willing to open up and talk and from the sounds of many responses there would be a lot of resistance. There is also a lot of bitterness driving decisions to wash hands of others. This can't be healthy but is totally understandable.

Perhaps at least trying to build a bridge in a calm way, knowing we might hear more of the same hurtful words, could provide some closure. Staying calm is the difficult part, but without doing so, the other party will always feel defensive and keep that door to their thoughts locked.

In the case of estranged parents that talk might go as follows: "a lot of things have brought us to this point in time where we don't speak. This is sad. At the end of the day you're still my parent and I'm your child. I'm grateful for you having created me because I've enjoyed some wonderful experiences but there's something missing and that is a relationship with you. It may take some time to build that because of all that's happened, but at least for today we still have time and so it's not too late. You may not want to talk and that's your right but you may miss out on something great. I'm simply saying that I won't let the past prevent a future so if you ever want to talk my door will always be open and I'm ready to listen. I'd like to learn more about who you really are."

Actually my brother and I have always joked about this song when it comes to our dad. I just looked over the lyrics and it sums up this thread very, very well;

Mike and the Mechanics - Living Years

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=agC7SoihH-o