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Re: Heat Training new science.... [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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better for untrained beginner athlete to start off training in very cold temps .
and
leave high temp training to seasoned athlete who is more acclimated / aware of subtle variances in their level of fitness .

imho
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Re: Heat Training new science.... [Pantelones] [ In reply to ]
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Pantelones wrote:
I'm planning on building a ghetto-ass DIY heat box in my garage to give this a whirl. I have some packing crates for a frame, plastic liner for walls, floor heater to get the temp up, and a thermocouple to monitor the temp.

A friend of mine put her treadmill in a heat-box to train for Badwater

She finished before the cutoff, twice

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
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Re: Heat Training new science.... [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]
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I think the heat acclimation benefits are well proven. I'd love to dive more into the HGH boosting theory

however I got distracted by this image on one of the articles... why the heck does my gym not have this setup



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Re: Heat Training new science.... [robgray] [ In reply to ]
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regarding the 16x HGH boost with 2 x 1 hour sauna session per day @ 80C - I think my main issue would be variability of the sauna in my gym and the accuracy of the temp

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Last edited by: robgray: Jan 11, 17 11:50
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Re: Heat Training new science.... [robgray] [ In reply to ]
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Haha! Yea, my sauna isn't at all like that either! I have enjoyed starting my heat training routine, though....
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Re: Heat Training new science.... [robgray] [ In reply to ]
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robgray wrote:
I think the heat acclimation benefits are well proven. I'd love to dive more into the HGH boosting theory

however I got distracted by this image on one of the articles... why the heck does my gym not have this setup


This would be great and all but I use the sauna at the Y. I don't really need to see this much of the other people who use the sauna with me...
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Re: Heat Training new science.... [noofus] [ In reply to ]
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Just like training, or altitude, heat is another stress for the body. Heat stress has similar aspects to endurance exercise stress.

So adaptation to heat stress can help you cope with endurance stress, especially when endurance stress is occurring in the heat.

https://www.strava.com/athletes/nbrowne1
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Re: Heat Training new science.... [robgray] [ In reply to ]
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robgray wrote:
I think the heat acclimation benefits are well proven. I'd love to dive more into the HGH boosting theory

however I got distracted by this image on one of the articles... why the heck does my gym not have this setup


You could probably find some dude to pour some water on the rocks for you.
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Re: Heat Training new science.... [robgray] [ In reply to ]
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robgray wrote:
I think the heat acclimation benefits are well proven. I'd love to dive more into the HGH boosting theory

however I got distracted by this image on one of the articles... why the heck does my gym not have this setup


If that were an actual photo his towel would be touching his chin.
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Re: Heat Training new science.... [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]
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An element that is lost in this discussion is that the one main human study cited in the piece by Rhonda Patrick is that the sauna sessions always followed training sessions. Note also that it’s not new research – the study was published in 2007.


With this in mind: there are decades of research on this topic, there are no secrets and the findings are clear. Naturally, you can improve performance in the heat (or cool/mild environments, as per discussions here and in the article) by training in the heat. The key part, however, is the TRAINING in the heat. You get little adaptation by passive/resting heat exposure.
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Re: Heat Training new science.... [CLA] [ In reply to ]
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So then how soon after your workout do you need to sit in the sauna for to get these proclaimed massive benefits and growth hormone changes?

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Re: Heat Training new science.... [odpaul7] [ In reply to ]
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When I did it a few years ago I sat in the sauna 4 times a week after my swim workout.

I started with 10 min and worked up to 40 minutes over a period of 3 weeks. I then had 1 more week (4 sessions) before I left for a race in a warm climate.

I can't say for sure it was optimal but I did run very well at my race. PR'd a HIM run by 5 minutes

jaretj
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Re: Heat Training new science.... [odpaul7] [ In reply to ]
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odpaul7 wrote:
So then how soon after your workout do you need to sit in the sauna for to get these proclaimed massive benefits and growth hormone changes?


The study in question was ~30 min/session after each training session for 3 weeks (can’t recall exactly how many total sessions). There were cardiovascular adaptations reported (red cell volume and plasma volume), but there’s no evidence that the sauna program changed anything else. All the other molecular and hormonal changes discussed in the Rhonda Patrick article are just hypothetical based on other lines of evidence.


Also note that the post training sauna program probably doesn’t maximise heat adaptation the way training in a hot environment would. General guidelines these days suggest for maximising adaptation in a short period, something like train for 60 min a day in the heat, most days for 10-14days.
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Re: Heat Training new science.... [CLA] [ In reply to ]
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My only question: for those with winter, what do we think would be better to produce hot conditions in training, wearing a ton of layers or having a space/fan heater or two blasting you? I would very much prefer the latter as two heat sessions a week results in a ton of heavy laundry... although I think the latter would be better anyway. Curious to know anyone else's thoughts

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
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Re: Heat Training new science.... [PhilipShambrook] [ In reply to ]
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PhilipShambrook wrote:
Small sample size (n=6) but other studies apparently support...What other studies? Where published? Where's the original study?

Only a citation comes up in Google Scholar. There are some references to a white paper (http://en.calameo.com/...041150264f1d2d0e287c), but I can't find any peer reviewed studies. Anybody been able to sight any peer reviewed studies by Dr Patrick on the subject?

I didn't see her on Pubmed, but maybe not searching the correct name?
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Re: Heat Training new science.... [hadukla] [ In reply to ]
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hadukla wrote:
My only question: for those with winter, what do we think would be better to produce hot conditions in training, wearing a ton of layers or having a space/fan heater or two blasting you? I would very much prefer the latter as two heat sessions a week results in a ton of heavy laundry... although I think the latter would be better anyway. Curious to know anyone else's thoughts

You'd have to actually test these out with something that provides an accurate measure of core temperature. It's hard to say whether or not the "lots of clothing" system actually works. As I've said on other threads about heat training, there is a fundamental difference between "feeling" hot and "being" hot. I.e. skin temp and core temp are correlated but not identical.

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Re: Heat Training new science.... [CLA] [ In reply to ]
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CLA wrote:
odpaul7 wrote:
So then how soon after your workout do you need to sit in the sauna for to get these proclaimed massive benefits and growth hormone changes?


The study in question was ~30 min/session after each training session for 3 weeks (can’t recall exactly how many total sessions). There were cardiovascular adaptations reported (red cell volume and plasma volume), but there’s no evidence that the sauna program changed anything else. All the other molecular and hormonal changes discussed in the Rhonda Patrick article are just hypothetical based on other lines of evidence.


Also note that the post training sauna program probably doesn’t maximise heat adaptation the way training in a hot environment would. General guidelines these days suggest for maximising adaptation in a short period, something like train for 60 min a day in the heat, most days for 10-14days.


I mean, is there a time window to hop in the sauna from the conclusion of your workout? And its not after each training session, it's just two sessions per week for three weeks.

"One study demonstrated that a 30-minute sauna session two times a week for three weeks POST-workout"


Also, would it make sense to use the sauna during heavy training stress days because of the supposed hormone benefits for improved recovery? I mean it's an additional stressor, but I'm assuming more sleep / appropriate rest.

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Re: Heat Training new science.... [odpaul7] [ In reply to ]
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odpaul7 wrote:
CLA wrote:
odpaul7 wrote:
So then how soon after your workout do you need to sit in the sauna for to get these proclaimed massive benefits and growth hormone changes?


The study in question was ~30 min/session after each training session for 3 weeks (can’t recall exactly how many total sessions). There were cardiovascular adaptations reported (red cell volume and plasma volume), but there’s no evidence that the sauna program changed anything else. All the other molecular and hormonal changes discussed in the Rhonda Patrick article are just hypothetical based on other lines of evidence.


Also note that the post training sauna program probably doesn’t maximise heat adaptation the way training in a hot environment would. General guidelines these days suggest for maximising adaptation in a short period, something like train for 60 min a day in the heat, most days for 10-14days.


I mean, is there a time window to hop in the sauna from the conclusion of your workout? And its not after each training session, it's just two sessions per week for three weeks.

"One study demonstrated that a 30-minute sauna session two times a week for three weeks POST-workout"


Also, would it make sense to use the sauna during heavy training stress days because of the supposed hormone benefits for improved recovery? I mean it's an additional stressor, but I'm assuming more sleep / appropriate rest.


Thanks for the clarification. My apologies, I hadn’t read the original paper for some time. The information you cite from Rhonda Patrick’s article is also incorrect; from the original paper’s abstract:


“We have therefore performed a cross-over study in which six male distance runners completed 3 wk of post-training sauna bathing and 3 wk of control training, with a 3 wk washout. During the sauna period, subjects sat in a humid sauna at 89.9+/-2.0 degrees C (mean+/-standard deviation) immediately post-exercise for 31+/-5 min on 12.7+/-2.1 occasions.” … therefore, ~4x/wk for 3 weeks.


To your main and more important questions: I wouldn’t make any recommendations about either the post-training interval to sauna time or the time to spend in it. Ideally it would be nice to see a comparison of this method against a known quantity (eg, 10-12 sessions over 2 weeks, 60 min/day, training in the heat vs regular ambient temp training plus equivalent sauna time immediately after).


You also raise a really good point regarding recovery, but I imagine adding this type of protocol to heavy training would be an additional stress you might want to avoid. I refer back to my original comment on this with respect to the hormonal and molecular aspects of adaptation: these are the factors that provide the adaptation, therefore they’re probably limited in comparison to ‘proper’ heat training.

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Re: Heat Training new science.... [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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So, how did your hot races go last year?
Temp and fan set up for CT and treadmill?
Attribute race heat management and subsequent performance to sauna or CT treadmill training conditions?
If sauna, how often/long each week?

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Re: Heat Training new science.... [CLA] [ In reply to ]
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Hm. Thanks CLA! It's interesting. I'm thinking if 2 or 4x/week provide even plasma/RBC increases, then that should also increase the quality of an athlete's training potential over time. I'd love to do an experiment on myself with sauna training but don't really have the time right now to commit to consistent sauna training so I suppose it's a moot point. There's more low hanging fruit in strength training, most likely

Also, miles--anecdotal experience with just CT training: I was getting ready for Austin 70.3 which was a pretty humid race. It was warm, but not hot this year. At the time my home area was pretty cold, so 2-3 times a week in the computrainer studio I'd turn off the fans, close the doors and do my workouts wearing a long sleeve shirt. If they were significantly longer than an hour I'd turn on the fans and cool the room down a bit. It was beautiful outside, so I was the only one of my teammates (I'm in college) to consistently do that indoors. I managed the heat in Austin much, much better than they did and was probably the only one who didn't overheat on the run.

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Last edited by: odpaul7: Jan 13, 17 4:57
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Re: Heat Training new science.... [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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ThisIsIt wrote:
PhilipShambrook wrote:
Small sample size (n=6) but other studies apparently support...What other studies? Where published? Where's the original study?

Only a citation comes up in Google Scholar. There are some references to a white paper (http://en.calameo.com/...041150264f1d2d0e287c), but I can't find any peer reviewed studies. Anybody been able to sight any peer reviewed studies by Dr Patrick on the subject?


I didn't see her on Pubmed, but maybe not searching the correct name?

Heat stress is not her area of research. She studies nutrigenomics in Bruce Ames' lab. Bruce is one of the most well known and respected nutrition researchers in the world.

Simplify, Train, Live
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Re: Heat Training new science.... [noofus] [ In reply to ]
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noofus wrote:
This topic fascinates me, but is there a transcript of this anywhere? I got 30 seconds into this video before shutting it off. Her voice pissed me off too badly. I can't take her seriously sounding like that, nor can I sit through 13 minutes of video having to listen to it.


Most all YouTube videos have transcripts. Press the button that reads, "more" then transcripts.

0:00dr. Rhonda Patrick here in my last video and accompanying article i discussed
0:05growth hormone igf-1 and their performance longevity trade-off
0:08on the one hand as a downstream mediator of growth hormone igf-1 has many
0:13positive effects associated with youth such as decreasing fat while increasing
0:17lean muscle mass increasing verbal memory and increasing neurogenesis the
0:22growth of new brain cells and also promoting muscle repair on the other
0:26hand mice worms and flies that are genetically engineered to have high
0:30levels of growth hormone or igf-1 have substantially shortened lifespans
0:35hence the trade off heat acclimation through sauna use a term that I call
0:40hyperthermic conditioning can help achieve and give you many of those
0:45positive effects associated with igf-1 without the risk of high levels of
0:51growth hormone or super physiological levels of growth hormone that's
0:55associated with growth hormone therapy today I'm going to discuss how
0:59acclimating your body to heat through using something like the sauna either in
1:05conjunction with our independent of exercise can induce physiological
1:10adaptations that can help improve your endurance performance and the
1:14acquisition of muscle mass
1:16in addition i'm going to discuss how heat acclimation actually has very
1:21interesting and positive effects on the hypothalamus and neuroendocrine system
1:26many of these impacting brain function including neurogenesis
1:30lastly I will discuss how he acclimate shin or modulating your core body
1:35temperature may also be responsible for the term known as the runner's high
1:46so let's begin with the endurance enhancements first heat acclimation
1:52increases the blood flow to your skeletal muscles
1:54this increases glucose is terrified fatty acids and oxygen to your skeletal
1:59muscles
1:59often times during endurance training your skeletal muscles will deplete these
2:04nutrients and then they have to rely on local glycogen stores and it totally
2:09endurance athletes often talk about hitting a wall
2:13well this in biological terms is referring to when your muscles have
2:17depleted local glycogen stores in fact it's been shown that heat acclimation
2:21reduces the need for to rely on glycogen stores between forty and fifty percent
2:26as compared to not being he documented second heat acclimation increases blood
2:33flow to the heart
2:35this lowers cardiovascular strain and lowers the heart rate for the same given
2:39exercise workload these things allow physical activity to be maintained for a
2:44longer period of time as compared to not being heat acclimated third is heat
2:49acclimation increases blood flow to the skin and it activates the sympathetic
2:53nervous system which allows sweating to occur at a lower core body temperature
2:58and to be maintained for a longer period there for lowering your core body
3:02temperature
3:03it also releases norepinephrine which is a vasodilator
3:08among other things and allows for heat to be a dissipated more officially
3:12efficiently also lowering the core body temperature
3:15so let's take a step back from these nuts and bolts and talk about what kind
3:20of it
3:21endurance gains you can expect from heat acclimation through sauna use and one
3:25study
3:26male runners engaged in 30 minutes on a session two times a week after their
3:31workout
3:32these runners were able to increase their running until exhaustion by thirty
3:36two percent and experience and accompanied seven percent increase in
3:39plasma volume and three-point-five percent increase in red blood cell count
3:45it's thought that the increase in red blood cell count was due to a
3:48compensatory mechanism for the increased plasma volume and possibly through a
3:53reportin heat acclimation through something you can also have positive
3:58effects on
3:58muscle hypertrophy that is gaining muscle mass muscle hypertrophy mostly
4:04relies on the increasing the size of muscle cells which depends on increasing
4:09protein synthesis exercise is a well-known inducer of muscle hypertrophy
4:14because it increases net protein synthesis but unfortunately it also has
4:18to combat the effects of oxidative stress which increases protein
4:22degradation at the same time
4:24so anything that can combat oxidative stress during exercise will result in a
4:30net increase in protein synthesis and NOS muscle hypertrophy
4:35there are three ways that being heat acclimated can increase muscle
4:41hypertrophy first is through the induction of heat shock proteins second
4:45is by boosting growth hormone levels and third is by improving insulin
4:50sensitivity heat shock proteins as their name implies are reduced by heat this
4:55robust conduction of heat shock proteins upon heat exposure is a prime example of
5:01hormesis heat shock proteins are able to repair damaged proteins and prevent
5:07protein oxidation by scavenging free radicals and by increasing endogenous
5:12antioxidants in our body such as glutathione and this is how they are
5:16able to cause a net increase in protein synthesis acclimating your body to heat
5:22can also result in higher basal expression of heat shock proteins as
5:26well as a more robust induction during later elevations in court by temperature
5:30such as during physical exercise and one study in rats hyperthermic conditioning
5:35resulted in a robust induction of heat shock proteins and is correlated with
5:39thirty percent more muscle regrowth compared to controls
5:42after seven days of mobilization
5:51the second way heat acclimation effects muscle hypertrophy is to the release of
5:55growth hormone
5:56the anabolic effects of growth hormone are well known for example growth
6:00hormone administration to endurance athletes for four weeks resulted in
6:03fifty percent less protein oxidation and degradation thereby increasing muscle
6:08hypertrophy
6:09but what's not well known is that the sauna also affects growth hormone levels
6:13these effects depend on the temperature time spent and the frequency of sauna
6:18use for example
6:19- 20 minutes on the sessions a day at 80 degrees Celsius can result in a two-fold
6:25increase in growth hormone levels over baseline but perhaps what's more
6:29surprising is the profound effects that frequency of sauna you can have on
6:34growth hormone levels and this really highlights the physiological adaptations
6:38that occur as a consequence to hyperthermic lean condition your body to
6:41heat two one hour a day
6:44sauna sessions at 80 degrees Celsius for seven days in a row resulted in a
6:4916-fold increase in growth hormone levels over baseline in men
6:54that's pretty huge
7:09the third way in which heat acclimation can
7:13muscle growth
7:14by improving insulin sensitivity insulin is anabolic because it decreases protein
7:19degradation much like heat shock proteins and growth hormone whole body
7:23hyperthermia has been shown to reduce insulin resistance and improve insulin
7:27sensitivity in an obese diabetic mouse model
7:31what's also interesting is that heat stress which is known to boost growth
7:36hormone levels and humans has been shown in flies and worms to cause about a
7:4215-percent increase in life span
7:45now this is counter to what you might expect if you watched my last video on
7:48the performance longevity trade-off
7:51the reason for this is that heat stress induces hormesis and that causes the
7:56increase in expression in genes and proteins such as heat shock proteins
8:01that are known to improve longevity in a minute heat exposure and heat
8:06acclimation also have positive benefits on the brain
8:09these positive benefits include increase neurogenesis improved learning and
8:14memory and improved focus on reduced hyperthermia also has a profound effect
8:20on norepinephrine and prolactin levels and one study individuals that stayed in
8:25the sauna until exhaustion
8:27how to three hundred and ten percent increase in norepinephrine and a tenfold
8:31increase in prolactin levels
8:33norepinephrine helps with focus and attention and prolactin is important for
8:37Milan growth
8:38milan increases the efficiency of the electrical activity of it in your brain
8:42and is also important for repairing nerve cell damage
8:46in addition to increasing norepinephrine heat acclimation also increases the
8:51biological capacity to store norepinephrine for later release this is
8:56very relevant for disorders such as ADHD which is often treated with
9:00norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors and is associated with decreased
9:03norepinephrine release during exercise heat stress also increases neurogenesis
9:14hyperthermia in conjunction with exercise increases the expression of
9:18brain-derived neurotrophic factor bdnf even more so than exercise alone
9:23bdnf is often referred to as a miracle grow
9:26for brain cells because it increases the growth of new brain cells and it
9:31promotes the survival of already existing neurons bdnf also increases
9:36neuronal plasticity which is important to learn new information as well as to
9:40remember and retain that new information
9:43bdnf has also been shown to decrease depression and anxiety associated with
9:48early life stressful events and if that weren't enough
9:52bdnf can also be released from your muscle cells where it promotes muscle
9:57repair and the growth of new muscle tissue
10:00all i can say is wow a couple of other interesting facts about physiological
10:09effects of heat stress
10:10ever wonder what's responsible for the runners high or the post exercise high
10:14in general you may think it's due to the release of endorphins
10:18but that's not the whole story endorphins also known as beta endorphins
10:21are part of the body's natural new opioid painkiller system
10:25this is the same system that potent narcotic like morphine interact with
10:28what you may not be familiar is the counterpart to this the kappa opioid
10:33system
10:34dynorphin is responsible for that feeling of dysphoria
10:38it is the opposite of endorphin the discomfort experienced from intense
10:47exercise heat stress or even eating spicy foods is due to the release of
10:53that disk for opioid dynorphin it is the release of dynorphin that causes your mu
11:00opioid receptors become sensitized to that feel-good opioid endorphin
11:05hyperthermia from Saudi use increases dynorphin levels and subsequently
11:11endorphin levels even more than exercise alone
11:15did you retain all that awesomeness i just threw at you
11:18ok let's have a quick recap heat acclimation through sauna use a term i
11:24called hyperthermic conditioning has been shown to improve endurance by
11:28increasing nutrient delivery to your muscles and thereby reducing the need
11:33for glycogen stores by improving cardiovascular mechanisms
11:38reducing heart rate and also by improving therma regulatory mechanisms
11:42and lowering core body temperature
11:44it's been shown to improve muscle hypertrophy by the by preventing protein
11:49degradation and thereby causing a net increase in protein synthesis from the
11:53pup following three mechanisms wine by inducing the expression of heat shock
11:57proteins which also are induced from a hormetic response has been shown to
12:01improve longevity and lower organisms
12:04secondly by increasing the release of growth hormone and thirdly by improving
12:08insulin sensitivity hyperthermic conditioning through sauna use also has
12:16important positive effects on the brain
12:18it increases the release and the storage of norepinephrine which is important for
12:22focus and attention
12:23it increases prolactin which helps your brain function faster through
12:27myelination which is also important for repairing damaged nerve cells in
12:32addition increases bdnf which increases the growth of new brain cells
12:36it is important for learning and memory and also helps decrease depression and
12:40anxiety that's associated with early stressful events
12:43lastly it also increases the expression of dynorphin which sensitizes your body
12:48to the feel good and orphan
12:51I believe that hyperthermic conditioning in general is worth a closer look as a
12:58tool in the tool bit of athletes beyond its more traditional role as a means of
13:02relaxation
13:03because hyperthermic conditioning works by inducing stress in order to build
13:07stress tolerance
13:09it should definitely be used with some level of caution and common sense
13:12particularly with regards to your own unique body chemistry
13:15here's one more thing for you cross the people out there
13:20heat stress has been shown to increase the expression of him oxygen is one
13:24which as it turns out is also known as heat shock protein 32 and has been shown
13:29to protect against the toxic effects of rhabdomyolysis and rodents
13:34i'm dr. Rhonda Patrick and i'll catch you next time

Geoff from Indy
http://www.tlcendurance.com
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