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Improve swim with kicking?
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Has anyone had any decent gains with their swimming by improving their kicking? I'm a FOPish swimmer, 27m 70.3, but have a very weak kick. Almost non-existent when in a wetsuit. I'm not looking to necessarily improve my triathlon swimming, but just my swimming in general. I know a lot of very quick triathlon swimmers who also have a weak kick, so I know it's not critical in triathlon.

I've read that if you can swim 1.30/100m you should be able to kick 1.50/100m roughly.. Depending on the time of the season I'd be swimming around 1.20/100m, leaving on the 1.30, but kicking I'd do 100m in a little over 3minutes and that's going reasonably hard. The other day I did 10 x 100 kick with 20s rest, all 100s were around 3minutes. I've been working on certain aspects of my kick and fixed up a few technical issues, but I'm guessing this is definitely an area I need to work on! I've also had a few shoulder problems and have read having a powerful kick can give the shoulders some relief, which makes sense.
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Re: Improve swim with kicking? [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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I swim about the same pace as you and my kick is also weak (and also non-existent in a wetsuit) but not 3 mins/100m. I'd be more in the 2:00-2:10 range depending on how hard I want to work. You've definitely got something going wrong at 3 mins and fixing that would likely have some carry over to your swim.
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Re: Improve swim with kicking? [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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zedzded wrote:


Has anyone had any decent gains with their swimming by improving their kicking? I'm a FOPish swimmer, 27m 70.3, but have a very weak kick. Almost non-existent when in a wetsuit. I'm not looking to necessarily improve my triathlon swimming, but just my swimming in general. I know a lot of very quick triathlon swimmers who also have a weak kick, so I know it's not critical in triathlon.

I've read that if you can swim 1.30/100m you should be able to kick 1.50/100m roughly.. Depending on the time of the season I'd be swimming around 1.20/100m, leaving on the 1.30, but kicking I'd do 100m in a little over 3minutes and that's going reasonably hard. The other day I did 10 x 100 kick with 20s rest, all 100s were around 3minutes. I've been working on certain aspects of my kick and fixed up a few technical issues, but I'm guessing this is definitely an area I need to work on! I've also had a few shoulder problems and have read having a powerful kick can give the shoulders some relief, which makes sense.


I think there are 2 things

  1. Ensure your kick is streamlines and provides counter balance for your arms. For this items, your kick is providing a platform for upper body power generation, without creating a parachute worth of drag. It seems exclusively based on your 27 min half IM time that you're already doing this, or you have a Lionel Sanders/Michi Weiss caliber engine and you can swim age grouper fast with shit technique
  2. Generating propulsion from your kick. I think this is only useful in a triathlon context if you are a pro triathlete and need to close gaps that open up or for the swim start to make the pack. In those cases you need every bit of propulsion, not streamlined legs and an anchor only. Personally I think striving for this second point is useless for age group triathlon.

I take around 60-65 second per 50m kick and you're swimming triathon 1.9K swim 4 min faster than me, so there are clearly bigger problems hurting me than kick propulsion (most of which are in the "streamline" camp).


If you want to improve your "pure swimming" then yes, go for it. Otherwise "waste of time" (in that you can put that energy into other forms of training).
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Re: Improve swim with kicking? [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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zedzded wrote:


I've read that if you can swim 1.30/100m you should be able to kick 1.50/100m roughly.. Depending on the time of the season I'd be swimming around 1.20/100m, leaving on the 1.30, but kicking I'd do 100m in a little over 3minutes and that's going reasonably hard. The other day I did 10 x 100 kick with 20s rest, all 100s were around 3minutes. I've been working on certain aspects of my kick and fixed up a few technical issues, but I'm guessing this is definitely an area I need to work on! I've also had a few shoulder problems and have read having a powerful kick can give the shoulders some relief, which makes sense.

At the point I was able to do 100scy in around :51, I couldn't have flutter-kicked 100yds in much under 2:00. So I was likely under 1:00/100m, but couldn't have been under 2:00/100m for kicking. YMMV.

That said, your kick speed is really slow. If it were due to body position issues, you'd not be able to do 1:20/100m repeats on 1:30. I'd guess you aren't kicking from the hip when you do kick repeats (more likely kicking from the knee), and you aren't kicking very much when you do swim repeats.

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Re: Improve swim with kicking? [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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look on the Dec. swim challenge thread for the ankle thingie Dev just got. Get one of those. Learn to kick from your hips.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
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Re: Improve swim with kicking? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
zedzded wrote:


I've read that if you can swim 1.30/100m you should be able to kick 1.50/100m roughly.. Depending on the time of the season I'd be swimming around 1.20/100m, leaving on the 1.30, but kicking I'd do 100m in a little over 3minutes and that's going reasonably hard. The other day I did 10 x 100 kick with 20s rest, all 100s were around 3minutes. I've been working on certain aspects of my kick and fixed up a few technical issues, but I'm guessing this is definitely an area I need to work on! I've also had a few shoulder problems and have read having a powerful kick can give the shoulders some relief, which makes sense.


At the point I was able to do 100scy in around :51, I couldn't have flutter-kicked 100yds in much under 2:00. So I was likely under 1:00/100m, but couldn't have been under 2:00/100m for kicking. YMMV.

That said, your kick speed is really slow. If it were due to body position issues, you'd not be able to do 1:20/100m repeats on 1:30. I'd guess you aren't kicking from the hip when you do kick repeats (more likely kicking from the knee), and you aren't kicking very much when you do swim repeats.

I also use a snorkel, so body position when I kick is pretty good, if I wasn't using a snorkel it would be even slower! I'm getting better at kicking from the hip and can put on short bursts, kicking hard when I really motor, but that leaves me breathless. I'm swim fit, but it's like I'm not kick fit?
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Re: Improve swim with kicking? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
zedzded wrote:


Has anyone had any decent gains with their swimming by improving their kicking? I'm a FOPish swimmer, 27m 70.3, but have a very weak kick. Almost non-existent when in a wetsuit. I'm not looking to necessarily improve my triathlon swimming, but just my swimming in general. I know a lot of very quick triathlon swimmers who also have a weak kick, so I know it's not critical in triathlon.

I've read that if you can swim 1.30/100m you should be able to kick 1.50/100m roughly.. Depending on the time of the season I'd be swimming around 1.20/100m, leaving on the 1.30, but kicking I'd do 100m in a little over 3minutes and that's going reasonably hard. The other day I did 10 x 100 kick with 20s rest, all 100s were around 3minutes. I've been working on certain aspects of my kick and fixed up a few technical issues, but I'm guessing this is definitely an area I need to work on! I've also had a few shoulder problems and have read having a powerful kick can give the shoulders some relief, which makes sense.


I think there are 2 things

  1. Ensure your kick is streamlines and provides counter balance for your arms. For this items, your kick is providing a platform for upper body power generation, without creating a parachute worth of drag. It seems exclusively based on your 27 min half IM time that you're already doing this, or you have a Lionel Sanders/Michi Weiss caliber engine and you can swim age grouper fast with shit technique
  2. Generating propulsion from your kick. I think this is only useful in a triathlon context if you are a pro triathlete and need to close gaps that open up or for the swim start to make the pack. In those cases you need every bit of propulsion, not streamlined legs and an anchor only. Personally I think striving for this second point is useless for age group triathlon.

I take around 60-65 second per 50m kick and you're swimming triathon 1.9K swim 4 min faster than me, so there are clearly bigger problems hurting me than kick propulsion (most of which are in the "streamline" camp).


If you want to improve your "pure swimming" then yes, go for it. Otherwise "waste of time" (in that you can put that energy into other forms of training).

Yeah totally agree, it's more about improving my swimming in general. I'm changing swim squads and want to be a better all round swimmer. I also do open water races.
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Re: Improve swim with kicking? [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Ever heard of swimming with an old pair of shoes on for kick drills? Supposed to be like fist drills, I guess. I've been told it should teach me to kick from the hips.
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Re: Improve swim with kicking? [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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How stiff are your ankles when kicking? Do you flex/unflex them so your feet function like fins or a dolphins tail? You can get a lot of drive from a low speed (2 beat or less) kick if your feet are doing the work. Its a mix of technique and power, can make a big difference though. Doing plenty of butterfly in your kick & regular sets will help you "learn" the motion and it rubs off on your freestyle kick.
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Re: Improve swim with kicking? [Ktri] [ In reply to ]
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Never heard this so I googled it. Found a couple sites suggesting it, and no consensus for why to do it.
What was your experience? Did it really help? Or did you do it enough to clearly note any differences? -J

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Re: Improve swim with kicking? [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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zedzded wrote:


Has anyone had any decent gains with their swimming by improving their kicking? I'm a FOPish swimmer, 27m 70.3, but have a very weak kick. Almost non-existent when in a wetsuit. I'm not looking to necessarily improve my triathlon swimming, but just my swimming in general. I know a lot of very quick triathlon swimmers who also have a weak kick, so I know it's not critical in triathlon.

I've read that if you can swim 1.30/100m you should be able to kick 1.50/100m roughly.. Depending on the time of the season I'd be swimming around 1.20/100m, leaving on the 1.30, but kicking I'd do 100m in a little over 3minutes and that's going reasonably hard. The other day I did 10 x 100 kick with 20s rest, all 100s were around 3minutes. I've been working on certain aspects of my kick and fixed up a few technical issues, but I'm guessing this is definitely an area I need to work on! I've also had a few shoulder problems and have read having a powerful kick can give the shoulders some relief, which makes sense.

I have been wondering the same thing over the past couple of weeks. My kick is pretty average, but still a bit quicker than yours (2.35 ish for 100). I am hoping to make some gains in the next year through improving my kicking.

I found this article by Gary Hall Sr & it made sense:
http://theraceclub.com/...baseline-swim-speed/

I rang my old swim coach for a chat today & asked him about it. He recommended I kick at least 400m every time I get in the pool.
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Re: Improve swim with kicking? [karlaj] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry about the non answer, I didn't see the post. Anyways, we only did it one time. It felt weird. It really felt like swimming fist drills. Like not getting any traction from the water. I'm not sure if it really worked out the way my coach thought it would as he hasn't brought it up since.
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Re: Improve swim with kicking? [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Has anyone had any decent gains with their swimming by improving their kicking? ....27m 70.3, but have a very weak kick. Almost non-existent when in a wetsuit. I'm not looking to necessarily improve my triathlon swimming, but just my swimming in general.

At 27min I'm not sure you need to worry about developing that. The kick only provides about 6-8% (can't remember the exact #) of your propulsion. The kick is more about driving the stroke/timing than IMO it's better to have a kick you can immediately use vs worrying about developing a better kick. If you develop a kick you can turn on/off based on the situation here is what you'll notice:


1. in rough or choppy water you'll swim faster relative to the field
2. at the start you'll be able to better position yourself to latch onto that 26:20-:30 group or drop the group that would normally be right on your feet
3. around buoys you'll be able to sprint into and out of buoys which is excellent for bridging up to someone or creating gaps to those behind you. If you have people on your feet might as well make them work hard
4. it'll be easier to move around in the pack to take advantage of drafting and/or the changing pack dynamics
5.it makes lifting your head to sight easier and/or you won't slow down as much as weaker swimmers
6. when everyone surges to the finish of the swim you'll be able to jump on the fastest feet easier
7. it'll be easier to breath in choppy water


I don't recommend actual kick sets except for maybe 200-300 in warm up/cool down as it's a good way to socialize in the pool.

Combine kicking & kicking with fins into your sets such as 20x50 fins as odds 25fly/25k on back evens 25k on back/25 swim fast :10

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: Improve swim with kicking? [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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Like many have mentioned it's a lost of time if you compare to the gains you might get from
the time invested.

Is it a waste having a good kick in Triathlon? IMO absolutely not especially for FOP!

Why? for these reasons: (Starts, Close and Open gaps)

- You want to clear as many swimmers from you feet at the start as possible! Sometimes
just creating that 5-10m gap is enough to drop those weakers swimmers that might hang
in there!

- Closing a gap with a group in front of you, that extra speed for a few seconds might cost
some effort on the short run but you will save more by catching the draft.

- Opening a gap after Buoys, just turn on the after burners and surprise the guys behind you
and drop them!

If you are in a Racer mode (Top place in your age group) you want to have this tool in order
to react to the dynamics of the Race, again that's my own opinion and they way I like to Race.

I haven't been much in the pool and haven't done much of kicking but...
When swimming around your time 25-27 mins for 70.3

My kick sets times were:

25m getting in 23-24 sec leaving on '30 if I do all-out sprint around 20-21 sec
50m getting 48-51 sec leaving on 1'00 if I do all-out sprint around 44-45 sec
100m getting 1'45-1'50 leaving on 2'00 if I do all-out sprint around 1'39-1'41

I only start swimming when I was 17-18, so NO youth swimmer background!

Last thing, I use to love kick set and hate Pull set (always getting drop by others)
Last edited by: MTL: Jan 19, 17 7:39
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Re: Improve swim with kicking? [Ktri] [ In reply to ]
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Instead of wearing shoes for a kicking drill, which will limit range of motion with the heel digging into the top of your foot, pick up a pair of DragSox, they are like $30.

To develop a more consistent kick swim with a snorkel. You can develop leg fitness and a better kick while you are swimming instead of having to devote large swaths of training time on the kickboard.

This guy breaks down the snorkel benefits pretty well here. It's designed for competitive swimmers, but the benefits apply to tri quite easily... https://www.yourswimlog.com/...aining-swim-snorkel/

Technique is the biggie, obviously--without having to turn your head to breathe, disrupting your body-line and dropping your hips you can actually dial in on hand entry, early catch, etc, but you can actually kick more consistently because you aren't crossing your ankles when turning your head to breathe.

Semi-pro halfer...
Last edited by: JessicaRandall: Mar 2, 17 12:05
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