Great race Steve and that's an even more amazing result considering the relatively low volume putting down a near pro time with half the training of most pros. Do you have a few weeks over the year where you ratchet it up to 20-24 hours every so often. Do you think that if you have more pro type training weeks you could get down in the 8:20's?

So that's what that finish line looks like in the light. :)

Nice job.

I exceeded 19 hours once this year, never broke 20. This was my 14th year in the sport, with 7-8 years of consistent rowing prior to that. With the cumulative number of hours that I've spent training over the last 20-25 years, I really don't think that ratcheting my hours up by 25-30% would improve my performance all that much, nor be a good thing for my 40 year old body with two boys under 5. However, I think improvements could be made if I redistributed my hours during blocks of the year where I focused primarily on 1-2 disciplines at a time.

I've toyed with increasing my run mileage over the last several years without any real benefit, IMO. I feel I'm pretty maxed out with my running ability. The "big" gains, if there are any to be made, are likely on the bike. If I put more hours on the bike and pushed the effort a little more, I think I could conceivably ride 40-50 watts higher than I did at IMAZ.

The question then comes down to "if" I want to do that.

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Steve Johnson
DARK HORSE TRIATHLON |

Good Race.

interesting comparison between us.

Same bike split, per lap too.

Same watts. ( although a wt 140 lbs)

Different bikes, wheels, helmets, clothing and bike fit positions.

I guess it's just all about watts. Save you money everyone.

FYI I rode a felt AI14 with Stock carbon clincher 50mm with no butyl tubes

Good luck in Kona.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

Great race Steve!

What size chain ring and crank length are you using?

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Bruce
ALBOPADS XTERRAWETSUITS NEWTON OAKLEY FIZIK GARMIN ROTOR COMPUTRAINER QUARQ HONEYSTINGER

Thanks Steve for sharing and agreed with that background, there are diminishing returns. The run volume thing I think everyone has to find their personal sweet spot. My fastest 10K, 21K and marathon races were all done on 25-35 miles per week. I tried the 60 mile weeks and ran slower. I even experimented once with a 100 mile week in the midst of a large run block and that was a disaster....but 4 months later, my running was flying for me in tris.

Would have been interesting to have seen what you could have done putting in pro like tri training in your late 20's to early 30's though with some 30-50K swim weeks and at different times 20-30 hour bike weeks.

I'm not sure I follow your logic...you pushed the same watts but you are 30 lbs. lighter and had the same bike split? Seems to me that the bigger guy pushing the same watts is quite a bit more aerodynamic, no?

Thanks for sharing and well done. I have a question about your effort on the bike. You see a lot of conventional wisdom about how experienced athletes should average ~75% FTP for a well paced IM bike leg. You're obviously an experienced athlete, but my guess is that your ftp is well above 290W.

My FTP is 310-320 and I'm a mediocre 155-160 pound racer (that ftp number is undoubtedly higher than when I raced my last IM five years ago, five years of intense CX training has helped). Even assuming that you and I put out the same W/kg at FTP (highly unlikely) that would put your FTP around 340W and your 'ideal' IM output at 255W, almost 40 watts more than actual.

My question is this: did you purposely go easier than you 'could' to set yourself up for a strong run, or did you just ride at a pace/effort/wattage that felt comfortable?

Also, I have to say I'm a bit shocked at 218 average watts and a 4:42 split. I honestly thought splits like that were only possible averaging ~300W. Well done.

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Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

Thanks!

I used a 53T outer ring (never shifted out of it) and 170mm cranks. For next year, I'm playing with the idea of going to a 1x and 10-155mm shorter cranks.

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Steve Johnson
DARK HORSE TRIATHLON |

Yeah, I sometimes wonder what would have been the case if I ever went "all in" with tri training and racing. But then again, there's a decent chance I'd be 5+ years removed from the sport by now if I had ever done that, but had gone faster at my peak.

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Steve Johnson
DARK HORSE TRIATHLON |

+1

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Steve Johnson
DARK HORSE TRIATHLON |

We are fortunate that this sport allows us to do it for a long time. It is rare that top pros keep doing it at a high level 10-15 years after their top performance. I think Craig Alexander and Cam Brown continue to be great examples of what is possible, but most either lose interest in going fast or want to move on to another career. Nevertheless, at least on the surface, it seems that you COULD have been an 8:1x/8:2x guy if you were all in during your late 20's in this vs doing it as a family guy in your late 30's early 40's (basically you're in the same boat right now as Craig Alexander and Cam Brown except they were all in as athletes earlier in life).

I've ridden as high as 243w for an IM and that was a disaster. I've also had low 3 runs having ridden in the mid 230s for rides in the 4:50s on other courses. I also rode 4:29 at IM Boulder in '15 on something like 208w.

So for me, I've fiddled with my effort levels during IMs, in addition to toying with my position and equipment to find my happy place with regard to effort and speed - and still being able to run well.

You read about the "conventional wisdom" for IM power, and you'll also read here just how easy you have to ride in order to have a good run....going to vary from person to person, how long they're on the bike course, their preparation, yadda yadda yadda. I have an athlete who rode 213w with a 330 FTP and went 4:35 at IMAZ. Everyone is going to have their own magic equation that can oftentimes take years to figure out.

FWIW however, I test in the low 360s for 20min power and the mid 420s for 5min power.

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Steve Johnson
DARK HORSE TRIATHLON |

Congrats on your PR. That's a great time.
Do you have a ST training log, and if not, do you mind sharing exactly what that 19-hr week looked like? I read the post in which you described how you rode 9-12 hours over the course of 3 days because that's what worked life-wise, but I'm curious where you fit the swim and running workouts in around that.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Great race Steve. Have your plugged your data into BBS? My guess your CDA is very low. You look a lot lighter than your picture suggests but pictures can be deceiving.

I think your a good example on being patient in this sport. Too many of us (myself included) want to rush to get that Kona slot. But I think you summed it up pretty good. You have a lot of aerobic development over the years from rowing to consistent running. I missed my Kona slot by one slot this year but I keep reminding myself that I've been only doing this for 6 years and never had an athletic background beside pick up basketball sometimes on the week-end as a kid. If I'm consistent, I will eventually get it.

I do have one question.....How fast/slow do you run in your training?

I do not have an ST training log. But that specific week was a Sun-Sat 7-day stretch and included a 1/2IM at the end of the week, which was more of a training day than a "race", especially considering that it was held at an elevation of 9200 feet.

But anyway, that week looked like this:

Sun: 2hr run
Mon: 4100m swim
Tues: 3400y swim, 2:45 ride
Weds: 2:15 ride, 35min run
Thurs: 3400y swim, 3:35 ride
Fri: 40min run
Sat: 35min swim, 2:35 ride, 1:30 run (1/2IM)

Another 18hr week from M-Su looked something like this:

M: 3500m swim, 20min run
T: 4:00 bike, 15min run
W: 3:00 bike
Th: 4hr bike, 30min run
F: 5500m swim, 30min run
Sa: 1:30 run
Su: 2600m swim, 1:00 run

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Steve Johnson
DARK HORSE TRIATHLON |

I haven't used BBS in well over a year.

If anything, I'm a patient person - and yeah, that will help in this sport. I also started doing sprints, Olys and 1/2IMs for the first six years I was in the sport...and it took several years of doing IMs, slowly chipping away, to really figure out how to race them in a way that best suits my abilities.

With regard to my running; if I'm going to head out and "just run", that's usually finds me at a pace in the mid to low 6:50s. I do however, head to the treadmill in order to control effort/pace on easy, short days - of which I'll do a lot. Those days, you'll see me running in the mid to upper 8s, and I'll toss in several 30sec strides building into the mid to low 6s.

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Steve Johnson
DARK HORSE TRIATHLON |

Not on a flat course. On a flat course like Florida and Arizona watts win vs watts/ kg.

up hills yes.watts/ kg I am very fast ;) Down hill I pedal hard to keep up. :(

e.g. Whistler I beat a 170 lbs guy by 20 minutes with all those long climbs, Arizona he beats me by one minute ( basically same watts avg for us)

another example is of an Olympic distance race in sept me vs another pro power file. We both held the same watts per kg avg of 4.20. For him hat was 311 watts for me it was 280.

I beat him during the hill section of 5-6 km and on the flat section he beat me. overall with the race having 5-6 km hills and 30 km flats he was ahead by 2 minutes.

If you are big watts but not watts per kg go to flat course if you are high watts per kg go to hills.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

No I am aero Jack Mott gave me top mark so it must be true.....

wt and forces at work here not much to do with air especially at such slow speeds.

I did the race last year with
deeper rims........ same time....

two years ago disc cover plus aero helmet.... same watts and time.....

I know different weather but same circle loop.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

That still doesn't make sense to me. The OP outweighs you by 30 lbs yet you had the same time on the same watts. By definition, he had the same time as you on far fewer watts/kg. I'm not saying that you aren't aerodynamic, but clearly the OP has you beat in this arena. If I were you, I would draw the opposite conclusion, i.e. spend more not less on optimizing your position.

It should take the same amount of watts for 2 riders with the exact same CdA to get across the bike course. I guess you're asking if the lighter rider can get more aero. Maybe, maybe not. Also keep in mind that whether the riders is lighter or heavier it's the same drag to push two 700C wheels through the air, and probably the frames are close. Can the lighter rider get more aero. Without seeing the shapes of both of their legs and torsos, and current position, well know knows? However you cut it, the lighter rider is going to devote a larger percent of his watts per kilo towards moving those wheels forward than the heavier rider. That's just the math.

This is so stupid to say without even seeing my position or the fact I just outlined that at the same watts per kg and VI, and conditions vs a heavy rider when we hold the same watts on a flat we go the same speed once a hill is present 3% -6 % I go faster. even with wind.

watts per kg is a function of riding skill not overall speed. how well for your wt can you apply your mass.

Have you ever gottent past by a semi up a mountain in your car, likely NO.
Do they pass you on the high way flats even though you are going the speed limit YES are they more Aero NO.
Is there power ( horse power / kg much higher on the flats NO.

anyways.... I don't want to highjack Steve's thread. This is about him and his day out there.

If you want to know more research inertia vs mass. Not being rude just saves me a lot of typing. And can save you a lot of time and money!

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

I wrote a few things but deleted. I don't think we should use this thread to discuss things it's about steves Race. I didn't want to take it over I was just pointing out to STEVE he did great. I sucked, and we had the same numbers.

I have ridden a P5, a P3 and a felt AI 14 and tons of wheel choice with different set ups at the same power on the flats on my 3 x 6.66 km (20 km) loop the results are always the same. I need more power or a hills.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter