"What principles do you think we are a custodian for? Do you think we're still fulfilling that custodial responsibility? (Broadly speaking)"

the list is longer, but, for one, america has been the most obvious model for a citizen-owned government, and for peaceful transfer of power, for the past quarter of a millenium. it has also been a model for the past century for the protection of public lands.

you and i may or may not agree that both these principles are important, and that america has been the most obvious example to the world, but that's how i roll and i think we've damaged our standing in both these areas during the past election.

So what you're saying is all the negatives in the entire country are directly the fault of Obama and the good things have nothing to do with Obama.

quote]


maybe he learned that somewhere

Yes, because the aggregate good far outweighs the bad, in terms of our unique history, our contributions to human progress, our commitment to Enlightenment ideals, our founding charter and it's enshrinement of those ideals, and it's essential and historic commitment to the defense of freedom around the globe.

There are times, events, and ongoing issues for which I'm embarrassed for my country, but only because I take pride in it to begin with.

That's the best answer I have seen. I am with you.

I simply can't get behind the aggregate total of "Pride" or many things we seem to apply it to. "America is the "Best" country", "I'm proud of my country" etc etc. I's based on some idea that at the point that the scale tips that it erases all of the opposite. "I'm proud of my country" for the most part says "Hey, let's forget all the shitty stuff". By the same token "I'm not proud of my country" says "Hey let's forget about all the good stuff".

Again I find the entire question should only be posed about pretty specific actions and scenarios. It's the only time it makes any real sense. "I'm proud my country generally protects free speech and the rights of the minority". No matter how much shitty stuff the country does it will never change the fact that I'm proud that is something we typically support and do. No matter how much good stuff the country does it will never white wash some of the heinous things that we have done.

~Matt

Really? How about 95 million Americans out of work......an all time high.

You have to stop this nonsense. That figure repeated by Trump is complete BS because it includes all Americans > 65 whether retired or not, all kids over 16 whether in school or not. The actual number of people between the ages of 25 - 64 who are not in the workforce is 8.3 million. And that is nowhere near an all time high.

How about 50% more people on food stamps.

The actual number of people on food stamps is 43 million but between April '15 and April '16, the participation decreased by 1.9 million and has been declining in the last few years with the improving economy.

soldiers who now have to share rifles.

In what war do soldiers have to share rifles? They have to share them now in training

and ps.......the price of gas has NOTHING to do with Obama. It would probably be lower if it wasn't for his anti fossil fuel energy policies.

So what you're saying is all the negatives in the entire country are directly the fault of Obama and the good things have nothing to do with Obama.

Have you ever considered that some jobs are lost with the increase in technology? Or, that some people on food stamps and social assistance choose to stay where the are and not look for work. Or, that some things in the country aren't necessarily the direct result of one person?[/quote

Wrong about food stamps.....while it did decrease slightly as you noted in the past year, the number is still 36.2 % higher than when he took office. Over 50% of recent college grads (last two years) are unemployed or underemployed.....all time high. The percentage of 18-34s who still live at home is at an all time high. Wages for millennials have decreased over the past 5 years. 40% of millennials have used a pawn shop or payday lender.... an all time high. There are 125 million 25-54s in the country and 29 million are unemployed....23%. No idea where you got your figures. Violent crime in major cities is now increasing thanks to Obamas "endorsement" of BLM as police officers now avoid confrontations. Military leaders can't stand the guy. School lunch programs are now a joke thanks to Michelle. Home ownership at an all time low. The divisiveness in this country is at an all time high......and this was well before Trump ever became a candidate. I'd like to know what good things you refer to above. Apparently the voting public didn't think much of the "good things" over the past 8 years either as they sure voted against another 3rd term of Obama. And all this doesn't even include his atrocious/incompetent handling of the "jv team", ISIS.....the Benghazi "video" and the FT. Hood "workplace violence" disaster. The markets sure think good things are about to happen after the last 8 years of anti business policies.Hopefully we can all be proud of our country real soon.

Honestly, it gets harder by the day. Not necessarily because of what our know-nothing President says and does, but because of how it's countenanced daily by roughly half of our political class and by a sizable minority of citizens with their explicit approval or silence.

I'm not a sky-is-falling kind of guy, but this is something I never imagined I'd see in my lifetime. And I hope we never have to see it again.

Remember when Chainpin and Forge would talk about the imminent the collapse of the country. I always had enough confidence in the people of this country that it seemed so foolish.

Remember when Chainpin and Forge would talk about the imminent the collapse of the country. I always had enough confidence in the people of this country that it seemed so foolish.

Now, I see the two sides of the political spectrum so far apart it worries me. And I see people who I thought were good hearted people making excuses for and rationalizing away behavior that is beyond the pale.

What you support and who you surround yourself with reveals a lot about you.

Are you proud of your country as it currently is, not as it used to be, and not as it could be or should be, but as it actually is?

Why or why not?

Honestly, it gets harder by the day. Not necessarily because of what our know-nothing President says and does, but because of how it's countenanced daily by roughly half of our political class and by a sizable minority of citizens with their explicit approval or silence.

I'm not a sky-is-falling kind of guy, but this is something I never imagined I'd see in my lifetime. And I hope we never have to see it again.

an effete anti-americanism that seems to roll off people's tongues so easily.
Fuck that degenerate instinct.

And you're reading that where on this forum, exactly?

Their view was that Obama's liberalism was going to cause the collapse. and that was foolish. I've been saying for years that grass roots polarization has effectively ended this country. It won't collapse, but it has pretty much split, and there are few people disputing that.