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Re: Now that I know my heart rate in the pool, what do I do with it? [awenborn] [ In reply to ]
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awenborn wrote:
I suspect there's a number of reasons why HR drops so rapidly in swim rest periods compared to runnning or cycling:

(1) The cooling effect of the water - you're going to dissipate all that excess heat from working out much more quickly if you're submerged in water than, for example standing around in still air on a running track.

(2) Physiology - swimming is largely an upper body activity (arms/shoulders/back) and the time required to supply-and-return blood from the heart and lungs to those muscles is much shorter than your leg muscles, ergo you can reasonably expect to recover quicker.

(3) Oxygen debt - your heart rate is likely elevated because of the oxygen debt from restricted breathing rather than overloading the cardiovascular system; reverting to a limitless supply of oxygen during rests helps rapidly correct this. i.e. the limiting factor in swimming is your pulmonary system (and utilisation thereof) rather than your cardiovascular system. N.B. I'm not sure if this is backed up by any evidence, but that's certainly how I feel during swim sets.

Your #1 is true if you're swimming in a 78-79* pool, but many pools that I swim in are more like 86* which would actually have the opposite effect, espec if compared to running at 60* or cycling at any temp below 78*. In fact, cycling prob has much more cooling than swimming in general, if all seasons of the year are considered.
Your #2 prob has validity and I had forgotten this angle. :)
Your #3 is highly, highly dependent on conditioning. I feel I can get just as totally gasping from running or cycling as from swimming.

In any case, this is an interesting discussion. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Now that I know my heart rate in the pool, what do I do with it? [Kevin in MD] [ In reply to ]
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But keep in mind that max heart rate is sport specific, //

Actually it isn't, or should not be. Your max is your max, now "HOW HIGH" you can get your HR in a given event can be different, and often times it is if you are not proficient in all 3 sports. Runners who go to the bike have a hard time holding a higher HR on the bike, bikers have a hard time on the runs. What this OP has illustrated is what I have said for years, your highest HR in races is always going to be in the swim, one of the factors I believe has led to so many swim deaths vs the bike and run ones.


And everyone here debating this or that, hold your breath right now for over a minute+ if you can, tell me what your HR is doing while being absolutely still. There is your answer as to why they are higher in the pool. Now add in a ton of anxiety, physical contact, most likely not pacing well(going out too hard) and a few other things, and you can easily see why swim race HR's are sky high as compared to the rest of the race.


It is just another tool to use like anything else, the more information you have, the more it can help. You dont need it, but you dont need a power meter or a Garmin, or even a watch if you want to go down that road. I just dont understand why more information about what is going on in your body is so frowned upon by so many here, yet they embrace other forms of measurements.
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Re: Now that I know my heart rate in the pool, what do I do with it? [hugoagogo] [ In reply to ]
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Since you are asking this question, I assume that like me you are an adult onset swimmer. The people who are saying HR has no use in the pool are wrong. Hand the monitor to the guard at the start of your swim and tell him/her to come get you if it goes to 0.
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Re: Now that I know my heart rate in the pool, what do I do with it? [kdw] [ In reply to ]
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kdw wrote:
Since you are asking this question, I assume that like me you are an adult onset swimmer. The people who are saying HR has no use in the pool are wrong. Hand the monitor to the guard at the start of your swim and tell him/her to come get you if it goes to 0.

I was a breaststroker in HS (1:05.5) never broke 1:00 for freestyle until my one year swimming in college. So not AOS, but also not near most non-AOS in my swim background.
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Re: Now that I know my heart rate in the pool, what do I do with it? [hugoagogo] [ In reply to ]
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hugoagogo wrote:
kdw wrote:
Since you are asking this question, I assume that like me you are an adult onset swimmer. The people who are saying HR has no use in the pool are wrong. Hand the monitor to the guard at the start of your swim and tell him/her to come get you if it goes to 0.


I was a breaststroker in HS (1:05.5) never broke 1:00 for freestyle until my one year swimming in college. So not AOS, but also not near most non-AOS in my swim background.

Ya but you were swimming breast back in the days when the top of your head could not go underwater. With today's rules, your 18/19 yr old self could prob do 57.7 today which is pretty fricking fast. The AR for the 100 yd breast has dropped about 6.8 sec since 1972 (56.83 to 50.04.) So what you weren't a great freestyler, lots of breaststrokers do well in tri due to their strong legs, which are an absolute requirement for breast since it is the only kick-dominant stroke. In sum, I think you are understating your skills. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Now that I know my heart rate in the pool, what do I do with it? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
But keep in mind that max heart rate is sport specific, //

Actually it isn't, or should not be. Your max is your max, now "HOW HIGH" you can get your HR in a given event can be different, and often times it is if you are not proficient in all 3 sports. Runners who go to the bike have a hard time holding a higher HR on the bike, bikers have a hard time on the runs. What this OP has illustrated is what I have said for years, your highest HR in races is always going to be in the swim, one of the factors I believe has led to so many swim deaths vs the bike and run ones.


And everyone here debating this or that, hold your breath right now for over a minute+ if you can, tell me what your HR is doing while being absolutely still. There is your answer as to why they are higher in the pool. Now add in a ton of anxiety, physical contact, most likely not pacing well(going out too hard) and a few other things, and you can easily see why swim race HR's are sky high as compared to the rest of the race.


It is just another tool to use like anything else, the more information you have, the more it can help. You dont need it, but you dont need a power meter or a Garmin, or even a watch if you want to go down that road. I just dont understand why more information about what is going on in your body is so frowned upon by so many here, yet they embrace other forms of measurements.

My swim HR is much lower than my running and cycling.
I am just not as quick at swimming as I am on my legs. I am sure there are many the same as me.
Anxiety and such at startline does nothing whatsoever to my HR.

HR has been available for many many years and has not gained much acceptance with swimming coaches.
Swim coaches definitely make use lactate measurement at higher levels in the sport.
The benefit of the use of HR monitors on the bike was blatantly apparent on the first ride I did with one.

HR is a tool that is not required in the pool.
This is primarily the result of extremely well controlled conditions that time is really all you need for the majority of training and HR is useless in racing as you cannot see it anyways.

I paddle surfskis, power paddles are a waste of time in the ocean, (handy in the creek) speed is a waste of time in the ocean, half the time you are not paddling and just surfing down wave faces.
HR on the other hand does an excellent job of letting me know how much juice to put out and when I should back off.
The intermittent nature of the effort is well captured by HR.

Horses for courses, some measuring technologies work better for some activities than others.
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Re: Now that I know my heart rate in the pool, what do I do with it? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
Ya but you were swimming breast back in the days when the top of your head could not go underwater. With today's rules, your 18/19 yr old self could prob do 57.7 today which is pretty fricking fast. The AR for the 100 yd breast has dropped about 6.8 sec since 1972 (56.83 to 50.04.) So what you weren't a great freestyler, lots of breaststrokers do well in tri due to their strong legs, which are an absolute requirement for breast since it is the only kick-dominant stroke. In sum, I think you are understating your skills. :)

Now I just need to find a tri where breastroke is mandatory on the swim leg -- but then again, I kinda like having a face.
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Re: Now that I know my heart rate in the pool, what do I do with it? [hugoagogo] [ In reply to ]
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I would ditch the HR in the pool and use the pace clock. That's what counts in the pool. You wouldn't back off pace on a 500 if your HR was too high. You just keep the pace rolling as best you can. And its not as easy to race with a HR on the swim vs the bike and run, when you can actually look at it during a race.
Stick to the pace clock, that's what matters in the pool.

Mike Ricci
2017 USAT World Team Coach
USAT National Coach of the Year
Coaching Triathletes since 1992.
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Re: Now that I know my heart rate in the pool, what do I do with it? [Mike Ricci] [ In reply to ]
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Mike Ricci wrote:
I would ditch the HR in the pool and use the pace clock. That's what counts in the pool. You wouldn't back off pace on a 500 if your HR was too high. You just keep the pace rolling as best you can. And its not as easy to race with a HR on the swim vs the bike and run, when you can actually look at it during a race.
Stick to the pace clock, that's what matters in the pool.

So I guess my question is whether I can use HR as a tool to figure out what pace/intervals I should swim. I can just keep doing what I've always done and use the paces/intervals that I have used, but how do I figure out if those are the optimal paces. In my case, I am not worried that I am pacing too slow (because of how spent I feel at the end of a workout), but maybe I'd be better off not going as fast -- and if heart rate is valuable for setting pacing goals for B & R intervals, what is inherently different about swimming that make heart rate irrelevant. Obviously, I would not expect to use HR in a race (I would use RPE), but in a workout I can use the data (and/or I can use it afterward to adjust intervals/pacing for my next workout) -- if only someone has developed a protocol for it.
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Re: Now that I know my heart rate in the pool, what do I do with it? [hugoagogo] [ In reply to ]
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hugoagogo wrote:
Mike Ricci wrote:
I would ditch the HR in the pool and use the pace clock. That's what counts in the pool. You wouldn't back off pace on a 500 if your HR was too high. You just keep the pace rolling as best you can. And its not as easy to race with a HR on the swim vs the bike and run, when you can actually look at it during a race.
Stick to the pace clock, that's what matters in the pool.


So I guess my question is whether I can use HR as a tool to figure out what pace/intervals I should swim. I can just keep doing what I've always done and use the paces/intervals that I have used, but how do I figure out if those are the optimal paces. In my case, I am not worried that I am pacing too slow (because of how spent I feel at the end of a workout), but maybe I'd be better off not going as fast -- and if heart rate is valuable for setting pacing goals for B & R intervals, what is inherently different about swimming that make heart rate irrelevant. Obviously, I would not expect to use HR in a race (I would use RPE), but in a workout I can use the data (and/or I can use it afterward to adjust intervals/pacing for my next workout) -- if only someone has developed a protocol for it.

Have you done any testing so you know how fast you can swim 10x100 on 10" rest vs 1000 yards all out?

Mike Ricci
2017 USAT World Team Coach
USAT National Coach of the Year
Coaching Triathletes since 1992.
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Re: Now that I know my heart rate in the pool, what do I do with it? [hugoagogo] [ In reply to ]
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No one really mentioning the basics of why HR can (often) be higher in the pool. Without gravity to fight, your circulation in prone position can get higher 'RPM's and reach higher BPM.* When I was a HS swimmer, I could routinely reach 210 BPM (this was swim your set, grab your wrist and look at the clock days..but still saw it many times ) . I never got there with running ( Soccer & Lacross wind-sprints )

* I have discussed this with the team at Boulder Sports Medicine Lab and this is what I recall (any errors are mine). I've just tried a little Google-fu to verify this and I haven't come up with any supporting papers. YMMV


As far as utility of swimming HR - I agree not much other than curiosity. Perhaps looking at trends for repeat efforts (500M, 1000M TT or similar) over time could be useful. If you do a 1000M TT in Dec, Jan & Feb - does your HR correlate to your times? Maybe you could get a metric for off-season vs in-season and know when you have reached 'good form' - but your times are an easier measure of form I would say.



" I take my gear out of my car and put my bike together. Tourists and locals are watching from sidewalk cafes. Non-racers. The emptiness of of their lives shocks me. "
(opening lines from Tim Krabbe's The Rider , 1978
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Re: Now that I know my heart rate in the pool, what do I do with it? [hugoagogo] [ In reply to ]
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hugoagogo wrote:
Mike Ricci wrote:
I would ditch the HR in the pool and use the pace clock. That's what counts in the pool. You wouldn't back off pace on a 500 if your HR was too high. You just keep the pace rolling as best you can. And its not as easy to race with a HR on the swim vs the bike and run, when you can actually look at it during a race.
Stick to the pace clock, that's what matters in the pool.


So I guess my question is whether I can use HR as a tool to figure out what pace/intervals I should swim. I can just keep doing what I've always done and use the paces/intervals that I have used, but how do I figure out if those are the optimal paces. In my case, I am not worried that I am pacing too slow (because of how spent I feel at the end of a workout), but maybe I'd be better off not going as fast -- and if heart rate is valuable for setting pacing goals for B & R intervals, what is inherently different about swimming that make heart rate irrelevant. Obviously, I would not expect to use HR in a race (I would use RPE), but in a workout I can use the data (and/or I can use it afterward to adjust intervals/pacing for my next workout) -- if only someone has developed a protocol for it.

Light bulb just went off in my head and I remembered that Ernest Maglischo has an excellent discussion of HR monitoring in his books: Swimming Fast, Swimming Even Faster, and, wait for it, Swimming Fastest. The most recent one ("Fastest") is a real tome, weighing in around 12 lbs and about 1000 pages. It'll give you some bed-time reading for a couple of months. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Now that I know my heart rate in the pool, what do I do with it? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
hugoagogo wrote:
Mike Ricci wrote:
I would ditch the HR in the pool and use the pace clock. That's what counts in the pool. You wouldn't back off pace on a 500 if your HR was too high. You just keep the pace rolling as best you can. And its not as easy to race with a HR on the swim vs the bike and run, when you can actually look at it during a race.
Stick to the pace clock, that's what matters in the pool.


So I guess my question is whether I can use HR as a tool to figure out what pace/intervals I should swim. I can just keep doing what I've always done and use the paces/intervals that I have used, but how do I figure out if those are the optimal paces. In my case, I am not worried that I am pacing too slow (because of how spent I feel at the end of a workout), but maybe I'd be better off not going as fast -- and if heart rate is valuable for setting pacing goals for B & R intervals, what is inherently different about swimming that make heart rate irrelevant. Obviously, I would not expect to use HR in a race (I would use RPE), but in a workout I can use the data (and/or I can use it afterward to adjust intervals/pacing for my next workout) -- if only someone has developed a protocol for it.


Light bulb just went off in my head and I remembered that Ernest Maglischo has an excellent discussion of HR monitoring in his books: Swimming Fast, Swimming Even Faster, and, wait for it, Swimming Fastest. The most recent one ("Fastest") is a real tome, weighing in around 12 lbs and about 1000 pages. It'll give you some bed-time reading for a couple of months. :)

I wish everybody here that comes along and asks questions about swimming would simply read that book first.
Skip the 3 strokes you don't need if you like, but read that book and all of your questions will be answered.
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Re: Now that I know my heart rate in the pool, what do I do with it? [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]
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lyrrad wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
hugoagogo wrote:
Mike Ricci wrote:
I would ditch the HR in the pool and use the pace clock. That's what counts in the pool. You wouldn't back off pace on a 500 if your HR was too high. You just keep the pace rolling as best you can. And its not as easy to race with a HR on the swim vs the bike and run, when you can actually look at it during a race.
Stick to the pace clock, that's what matters in the pool.


So I guess my question is whether I can use HR as a tool to figure out what pace/intervals I should swim. I can just keep doing what I've always done and use the paces/intervals that I have used, but how do I figure out if those are the optimal paces. In my case, I am not worried that I am pacing too slow (because of how spent I feel at the end of a workout), but maybe I'd be better off not going as fast -- and if heart rate is valuable for setting pacing goals for B & R intervals, what is inherently different about swimming that make heart rate irrelevant. Obviously, I would not expect to use HR in a race (I would use RPE), but in a workout I can use the data (and/or I can use it afterward to adjust intervals/pacing for my next workout) -- if only someone has developed a protocol for it.


Light bulb just went off in my head and I remembered that Ernest Maglischo has an excellent discussion of HR monitoring in his books: Swimming Fast, Swimming Even Faster, and, wait for it, Swimming Fastest. The most recent one ("Fastest") is a real tome, weighing in around 12 lbs and about 1000 pages. It'll give you some bed-time reading for a couple of months. :)


I wish everybody here that comes along and asks questions about swimming would simply read that book first.
Skip the 3 strokes you don't need if you like, but read that book and all of your questions will be answered.

Ya, he really covers everything under the sun related to swimming; I have his first two books but haven't bought the third one yet as I felt the first two answered all my questions.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Now that I know my heart rate in the pool, what do I do with it? [hugoagogo] [ In reply to ]
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I'm curious as to how you are meant to monitor your heart rate during a swim workout. Is there some stroke modification, like sighting, where you can check your wrist watch mid stroke to monitor vital statistics? Or do you stop instead of hitting a flip turn to take a look and then wreck your pacing?
I'm a fan of heart rate monitoring when I can watch it real time (you know, when I can breathe and stuff) but I struggle to see how to apply it to swimming. Maybe at some point they will have a little display in the bottom corner of my goggles that shows me how I'm doing real time, but until then I'm kinda with the guy who suggested that you may have bought a useless device.


There are 10 types of people in the world. Those that understand binary and those with friends.
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Re: Now that I know my heart rate in the pool, what do I do with it? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Ya, he really covers everything under the sun related to swimming; I have his first two books but haven't bought the third one yet as I felt the first two answered all my questions. //

I got to swim in Ernie's program at Chico State back in the 70's, before he got so famous from all his books!! I think he had the first one out, definitely had the ideas and winning background already. Think he went to Bakersfield right around the time I got there, or maybe it was Arizona, can't remember. But his coaching technique was carried on by his successor Clark Yeager and Chico continued to dominate Division II without every handing out one scholarship. Ernie would take good high school swimmers and make then NCAA champions. His books are the bibles of swimming..
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Re: Now that I know my heart rate in the pool, what do I do with it? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Ya, he really covers everything under the sun related to swimming; I have his first two books but haven't bought the third one yet as I felt the first two answered all my questions. //

I got to swim in Ernie's program at Chico State back in the 70's, before he got so famous from all his books!! I think he had the first one out, definitely had the ideas and winning background already. Think he went to Bakersfield right around the time I got there, or maybe it was Arizona, can't remember. But his coaching technique was carried on by his successor Clark Yeager and Chico continued to dominate Division II without every handing out one scholarship. Ernie would take good high school swimmers and make then NCAA champions. His books are the bibles of swimming..

How incredibly cool!!! You swam under Ernie, then competed with Mark and Dave. You're just a living legend!!!


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Now that I know my heart rate in the pool, what do I do with it? [bazilbrush] [ In reply to ]
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bazilbrush wrote:
I'm curious as to how you are meant to monitor your heart rate during a swim workout. Is there some stroke modification, like sighting, where you can check your wrist watch mid stroke to monitor vital statistics? Or do you stop instead of hitting a flip turn to take a look and then wreck your pacing?
I'm a fan of heart rate monitoring when I can watch it real time (you know, when I can breathe and stuff) but I struggle to see how to apply it to swimming. Maybe at some point they will have a little display in the bottom corner of my goggles that shows me how I'm doing real time, but until then I'm kinda with the guy who suggested that you may have bought a useless device.

I do not try to monitor it mid-interval, but between each interval I can read my average and max heart rate for the previous interval. So, for example, if I were doing a set of 10 X 100, I could adjust my effort for each interval based on whether I hit a target on the previous one.
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Re: Now that I know my heart rate in the pool, what do I do with it? [hugoagogo] [ In reply to ]
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hugoagogo wrote:
bazilbrush wrote:
I'm curious as to how you are meant to monitor your heart rate during a swim workout. Is there some stroke modification, like sighting, where you can check your wrist watch mid stroke to monitor vital statistics? Or do you stop instead of hitting a flip turn to take a look and then wreck your pacing?
I'm a fan of heart rate monitoring when I can watch it real time (you know, when I can breathe and stuff) but I struggle to see how to apply it to swimming. Maybe at some point they will have a little display in the bottom corner of my goggles that shows me how I'm doing real time, but until then I'm kinda with the guy who suggested that you may have bought a useless device.


I do not try to monitor it mid-interval, but between each interval I can read my average and max heart rate for the previous interval. So, for example, if I were doing a set of 10 X 100, I could adjust my effort for each interval based on whether I hit a target on the previous one.

Can't you adjust your effort based on whether you hit a target *on the clock* instead?

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Now that I know my heart rate in the pool, what do I do with it? [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
Can't you adjust your effort based on whether you hit a target *on the clock* instead?


Yeah -- its the target on the clock thing -- that is largely what my question is about. Sorry if I have failed to ask it coherently so let me try again in a different way -- would it be effective to set/adjust my "target *on the clock*" based on what I am seeing on my HRM. If I miss a target time and try to correct by adding even more effort, is that an effective training regimen -- even if I am regularly sending my heart rate very close to max. If yes, what is it about swimming that makes it different than B&R where that level of day to day exertion is not recommended (I get that there is pounding in R, but not so much in B). I understand that there are various approaches to setting training intervals for swimming, many of them involving swimming some set distance (e.g. 1000 yards) for time and then determining different paces based on various adjustments to the average pace for that swim. But my question is whether there is a way to use HR instead of a test swim (or maybe in addition to a test swim). I have seen many swimmers checking their pulse at the wall (finger placed under jaw bone). I never learned what they were doing with the info and I could never figure out how to take my own pulse that way between intervals. Now I have technology that lets me get the info (and more accurately than they could get it and its my pulse from when I was swimming, not while I am resting) and I am trying to learn what those those folks were doing with it.

I get that I am asking about something that is not in general use, but some of the responses here (not referring to you, Ken) seem a little over the top critical. It is new data. It is somewhat interesting. It seems like it might be helpful. I like tech for its own sake (sorry for not being completely practical) and my Garmin HRM went out and I had to get a new one and the delta to add the HRSWIM to the bundle was low enough that I threw some money at it. Just seems logical to see if it can help. If not, it will still be interesting to monitor HR over time to see what kind of feedback it gives my about my swimming (e.g., possibly looking at relationship of technique changes to HR, or seeing whether HR is a good metric to my conditioning, etc.). If someone isn't interested in having an HRSWIM, I am perfectly fine with that choice. I am also fine with my choice of having one. I am just interested in ideas how I can put it to good use. /END RANT/
Last edited by: hugoagogo: Dec 9, 16 0:24
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