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Re: The end of white Christian America [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Am I hung up on the language? Of course, because "Christian values" is such a broad statement that it's meaningless and not factual. Without definition of what "Christian values" is it is neither historically accurate or factual at all.



vitus979 wrote:
No, it's not a "gross oversimplification." Like I said, it's a broad, historically factual statement. You seem to be hung up on the idea that it's a value judgement. It's not. Nor is it a dissertation on the totality of the influence of Christianity on Western Civilization, or the interplay and conflict between varying sects. It's not intended to be.
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Re: The end of white Christian America [MidwestRoadie] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah was slavery consistent with Christian values? Both sides surely thought so, and had Biblical justification.
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Re: The end of white Christian America [MidwestRoadie] [ In reply to ]
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because "Christian values" is such a broad statement that it's meaningless and not factual.

It's only "meaningless" if you ignore the context of the statement. And it most certainly is factual.

Could it be more precise? Sure. We could narrow it down and say America is a country shaped largely by the Jude-Christian tradition, and specifically the Protestant faiths, and so on and so on. Dissertations can and have been written on the topic. But the only people who require that kind of detail to acknowledge the fact that America was a Christian nation are those who have a vested interest, for some reason, in arguing over it.









"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The end of white Christian America [malte] [ In reply to ]
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"As a homeless atheist, the Christian Shelters and Kitchens barred and banned me after objecting to hour long sermons in order to receive a meal or bed." People thought that person and others like him/her should be able to receive help with no strings attached.

Hmmm... Leaving aside the theistic beliefs of the religion, I do like the Christians' belief that they can expect things from the people they help. Sermon attendance by transients doesn't fill the church coffers with anything.
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Re: The end of white Christian America [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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It is meaningless when it is a lie. What is factual is that people who called themselves Christian were largely influential in the founding of our country. What is not factual is that their methodology of establishing a country was actually a Christian value, unless you consider slavery, a suppression of women's rights, a paternalistic approach, and imperial theft of land to be the "Christian values" you associate with, as those were the values we were initially founded on and that influenced our history. Let's put it this way, I could say I love my children but if I emotionally abused them, ignored them, spent all of my time doing other things or with other people, but I did provide the basic food and shelter they need, would you say I love my children? When my action directly contradicts the values I espouse not as a singular one-off mistake or event but as a way of being, would my values actually be rooted in love? Our country has done some amazing things, but I would argue that we would have done those same amazing things if there were no such thing as Christianity to connect those things to. We can say "Christian values" about our country all we want, but it is not factual; it is creating a god in our image and calling it a Christian god.




vitus979 wrote:
because "Christian values" is such a broad statement that it's meaningless and not factual.

It's only "meaningless" if you ignore the context of the statement. And it most certainly is factual.

Could it be more precise? Sure. We could narrow it down and say America is a country shaped largely by the Jude-Christian tradition, and specifically the Protestant faiths, and so on and so on. Dissertations can and have been written on the topic. But the only people who require that kind of detail to acknowledge the fact that America was a Christian nation are those who have a vested interest, for some reason, in arguing over it.
Last edited by: MidwestRoadie: Oct 27, 16 9:40
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Re: The end of white Christian America [MidwestRoadie] [ In reply to ]
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It is meaningless when it is a lie.

Except it's not a lie, it's a historical reality. Whether or not the country lived up to your Christian ideal, or even its own, is beside the point.









"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The end of white Christian America [MidwestRoadie] [ In reply to ]
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Is there a meaningful difference in the Lord's Resistance Army (supposedly Christian) vs. that of Serbian and Bosnian Muslims? Yes.

err small point but... Serbia isn't Muslim, it's Christian, specifically Christian Orthodox, part of their issues were in fact their fear and dislike for Muslims.
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Re: The end of white Christian America [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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It's also a historical reality that people said black people weren't fully human, that Jews were biologically different. These are also historical lies, no different than our society calling itself a Christian society through much of history but being proven to be a lie through a look back at our history. A label about a thing is not the thing itself. The label is a lie in these cases.



vitus979 wrote:
It is meaningless when it is a lie.

Except it's not a lie, it's a historical reality. Whether or not the country lived up to your Christian ideal, or even its own, is beside the point.
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Re: The end of white Christian America [MidwestRoadie] [ In reply to ]
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For crying out loud, dude.

It was a Christian nation. Nobody said it was a nation of saints.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The end of white Christian America [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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vitus979 wrote:
It is meaningless when it is a lie.

Except it's not a lie, it's a historical reality. Whether or not the country lived up to your Christian ideal, or even its own, is beside the point.

What is unique to "Christian values?" Can one find that which is NOT Roman, or pre-Christian European, or African or Native American or Islamic (via Spanish culture)?

Perhaps...

But that's a very difficult historical project.
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Re: The end of white Christian America [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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This is where we wholly disagree. I can throw a sticker on an orange and call it a banana but it's no more a banana than it is a mahogany desk. You argue that it was a Christian nation. I argue that it never was a Christian nation and had a sticker calling itself a Christian nation. Now people who valued that sticker are up in arms because it's being pealed off to reveal what it really has been...which is something much more complicated than the simple "Christian nation" label.




vitus979 wrote:
For crying out loud, dude.

It was a Christian nation. Nobody said it was a nation of saints.
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Re: The end of white Christian America [MidwestRoadie] [ In reply to ]
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This is spot on... Christian Values are not values because they are christian but because people developed them. were there no christians(or any religions) going forward our values would still grow and mature because as humans we do this.

Also, I believe that religious type groups that do good deeds based on an expectation of the recipient participating in that religious prayers, service extra are NOT doing good deeds for the sake of empathy of bettering mankind or for only "christian values", they are providing a service for a fee. And that's not a morally higher ground.


MidwestRoadie wrote:
That's entirely dependent on what one defines as "Christian values." I would argue that there are shared values across society that supersede the religious or influence tie to those values. That is to say that Christianity in many ways was a vehicle to carry values we would have had in place regardless of whether or not Christianity actually existed.
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Re: The end of white Christian America [MidwestRoadie] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know what to tell you. As a matter of historical fact, you're simply wrong. Just because the country didn't live up to your personal ideal of Christianity does not mean it's inaccurate to say it was a Christian nation. The ideals that it was founded on developed directly from the European Christian tradition. The mass of people held to Christian beliefs and values- they had a common set of agreed upon values, even if at times only aspirational and not fully realized.

You might as well argue that the founders weren't influenced by the Enlightenment because slavery is incompatible with Enlightenment values. It's sophomoric and simply historically inaccurate.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: The end of white Christian America [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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I kinda agree, I am one that doesn't usually talk about my atheism since nothing there means nothing to talk about.

But where I think you are mistaken is the people that you feel that its a cause or mission in life.

Public poeple like Dawkins, Hitchens (the late), Harris, Tyson etc. I believe they are harping on and on about it because they believe religion and people's belief in it, is not just mistaken or a different "viewpoint", but dangerous and inherently destructive.

even friends that I know, the ones that make there atheism known and talk about it not because of some atheism viewpoint but because they strongly believe that people shouldn't believe in religion and its horrible to mankind.

while me and I believe most people who would identify as atheists, don't think about it all, just like I don't think about the toothfairy. thats why we don't talk about it, really whats to talk about? I don't care if religion is important in someone else's life, if it gives them joy and comfort, good for them. usually.....

I care is when someone tells me that I need to agree with their beliefs or feel they need insist my atheism is some kind of belief system too

it's kinda like when I was was told my nephew at 12 years old still believes in Santa Clause, no problem I don't have the need to tell him he's wrong to believe in santa clause but its kinda silly he hasn't figured it out yet


slowguy wrote:
Doesn't really pass the high school analogy test though.

Atheism isn't a religion in the sense of a system of practices and beliefs centered on belief in a god. However, it is a term used to define a viewpoint, and that viewpoint can be very important to some people, much like other viewpoints that are described as religion. In a more general sense, religion can be defined as any "interest, belief, or activity that is extremely important to a person or group." That's why some people describe sports as their religion, or money as their religion, etc.

There are some atheists for whom their atheism isn't a big thing. They simply don't believe in a deity. There are others, however, for whom atheism is a cause, a system of beliefs, and a mission in life. For those people, I think it's more accurate to describe atheism as their religion.
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Re: The end of white Christian America [MLCRISES] [ In reply to ]
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Where are the athiest shelters?


Right next to the "we don't ski" animal sanctuary.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: The end of white Christian America [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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ThisIsIt wrote:
It's an interesting thing to think about. Did people in say 1st century Rome treat one another much different than 5th century or modern day Rome?

And while I think in most places and times people have come to some fairly common core human values that allow society to function well enough there are certainly examples where societies function with markedly different values (which in part seem to center around treating women as property and markedly subservient to men).

White Christians believed the bolded part until fairly recently.
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Re: The end of white Christian America [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Can God both exist and not exist?

I think he can.

I can think of a whole bunch of ways in which he exists.

And a whole bunch of ways in which he doesn't.

Atheism is a religion (and dogmatic one at that) - in that it doesn't allow for multiple explanations, meanings and realities. And it doesn't recognize the limits of it's power to explain.

In this way Atheism is just like Christianity (it's intellectual parent).
Last edited by: dirtymangos: Oct 27, 16 11:53
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Re: The end of white Christian America [Erin C.] [ In reply to ]
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(which in part seem to center around treating women as property and markedly subservient to men).

White Christians believed the bolded part until fairly recently.

What about non-white Christians?

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Re: The end of white Christian America [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
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Sanuk wrote:
(which in part seem to center around treating women as property and markedly subservient to men).

White Christians believed the bolded part until fairly recently.

What about non-white Christians?

Yeah, them too. But since this is a thread about our 'white, Christian' nation that is what I was responding to -- the idea that other cultures treated women as property.
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Re: The end of white Christian America [dirtymangos] [ In reply to ]
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That might be the wrongest thing ever written in this forum.


Atheism in no way resembles any religion other than the fact that it takes a position on a single idea; the belief in a magical deity. There is no philosophy to follow, no rules, no churches, no congregation, no books, no wars, no witch hunts, and no songs. Atheists are a religion like people who don't ski belong to a club called the "we don't ski club."

If atheism is a "dogmatic religion" based solely on its inability to allow for multiple explanations, then people who don't believe in Santa Clause would also constitute a "dogmatic religion."

If you want to go down the path of whether or not one can be certain that gods don't exist, most atheist would say that they are not certain, but most deists, if they are being honest, would also say that they are not certain. A deist who believes in Jesus based on faith, but lacking certainty, is not called an agnostic. He's called a Christian. Likewise we are called atheists.







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Atheism is a religion (and dogmatic one at that) - in that it doesn't allow for multiple explanations, meanings and realities. And it doesn't recognize the limits of it's power to explain.

In this way Atheism is just like Christianity (it's intellectual parent).

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Last edited by: BarryP: Oct 27, 16 12:28
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Re: The end of white Christian America [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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I am just pointing out a way in which Atheism (and atheists) can behave a lot like a dogmatic religion (or the adherents of said religion).
Feel free to point out ways that Atheism doesn't behave like a religion at all.

I am not sure what religion is anyway.
That's seems pretty hard to prove.


Thought I might know what "White Christianity" might be.
But I am now convinced Christianity is all tied up with every other belief. And I think it's not possible to disentangle all the threads.





BarryP wrote:
That might be the wrongest thing ever written in this forum.


Atheism in no way resembles any religion other than the fact that it takes a position on a single idea; the belief in a magical deity. There is no philosophy to follow, no rules, no churches, no congregation, no books, no wars, no witch hunts, and no songs. Atheists are a religion like people who don't ski belong to a club called the "we don't ski club."

If atheism is a "dogmatic religion" based solely on its inability to allow for multiple explanations, then people who don't believe in Santa Clause would also constitute a "dogmatic religion."

If you want to go down the path of whether or not one can be certain that gods don't exist, most atheist would say that they are not certain, but most deists, if they are being honest, would also say that they are not certain. A deist who believes in Jesus based on faith, but lacking certainty, is not called an agnostic. He's called a Christian. Likewise we are called atheists.







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Atheism is a religion (and dogmatic one at that) - in that it doesn't allow for multiple explanations, meanings and realities. And it doesn't recognize the limits of it's power to explain.

In this way Atheism is just like Christianity (it's intellectual parent).
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Re: The end of white Christian America [dirtymangos] [ In reply to ]
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I am just pointing out a way in which Atheism (and atheists) can behave a lot like a dogmatic religion (or the adherents of said religion).

Atheists are individuals who can behave in all sorts of manners, one of them certainly being like a dogmatic religion. None of that has anything to do with atheism.


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Feel free to point out ways that Atheism doesn't behave like a religion at all.

The same way that non-skiers don't behave like a ski club. The term "non-skier" specifically means that a person doesn't ski. It does not mean that they belong to a club called the "we don't ski club" who has meetings, a Facebook page, and organizes outings to places where they can go and actively "not ski" as a group.


Atheism generally implies non-religious (though it does not directly mean non-religious). If "not religious" is as religious as "religious," then what term is left for someone who is actually not religious?

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: The end of white Christian America [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Christian's, I thought it was the end of white Christmas,,,,, due to global warming,,,,,,, which apparently I don't believe in?M? ;)

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"Look, will you guys at leats accept that you are a bunch of dumb asses and just trust me on this one? Please?" BarryP 7/30/2012
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