Assuming your coach is knowledgeable about swimming...

Keep doing what you're doing. Over time (aka, practice) you will hopefully develop the technique of getting that good body position thru technique improvements that don't require sprint kicking. It sounds like you now know the feeling of the proper position - that's something. Some people never get that far. Perhaps you need to look down a few more degrees to get your butt up and maybe the legs will follow while doing a lot less kicking. as far as stroke count goes. A "longer" stroke will help you develop strength - assuming you go the same speed. It also may be beneficial to your technique and body position, but, it won't happen over night.

Fall is really a great time to invest in swimming - good for you.

Enjoy the journey (people who learn to enjoy swimming, do better at swimming - surprise!)

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I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

You are always in a better body position when you swim faster. the legs will rise up behind you. (think of a water skier before and after the boat takes off.)

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Badig| Strava

The more force you put through the water, your body elevates as a reaction. Longer gliding type strokes don't really build speed but allow you to sink in between strokes and require increased force per stroke to maintain speed. Your arm speed in swimming is akin to cadence on the bike. Find your comfortable spot but be sure to turn your arms over quickly.

This kind of reminds me of the Tour 26 podcast - Helicopters, Airplanes vs. Gliders.

On another note, I've never learned to do flip turns. I kind of feel like it only makes my pool times look better, but isn't a practical skill that helps in a race. Is this correct or is there a reason I should be flippin'?

Thanks!

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https://www.strava.com/athletes/228137

Yes, learn the flip turn. You don't flip in open water, but you maintain your speed coming off the wall from the flip turn. And all the cool kids do it.

All the fast tri swimmers do flip turns, but it's correlation not causality. They are fast because they have been racing in the pool since age five, and in the pool walls are a big part of the race (especially now that it's a dolphin-fest).

Flip turns will make you faster in the pool, give you better flow, and make you look more like a swimmer; but they won't make you faster in open water. Flip turns add a hypoxic element to swimming that (at least in my case) leads me to be oxygen limited during repeats vs. muscle limited. I find the opposite is true in OWS races. I do flip turns in the pool since I need the speed to keep up with the folks in my lane and to keep steady relative to the speed others are going.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

There's some causality. Flip turns give you more practice streamlining, and they allow for better training. People who do open turns take a really long break each lap; you don't get that in a flip turn.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

This is pretty common.
Gliding, though? That's not a word I think of with freestyle. I think catch-pull-turnover. You want a long stroke but not so long that you are gliding waiting to get your arms forward more.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

The above may be perceived benefits; but we don't really have any studies to show that, aotbe, doing flip turns leads to more effective training or OWS.


I would argue that doing a flip turn creates a longer break in the swim arm-cycle. A flip turn may be faster overall, but there is the glide into the wall that an open turn omits.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

 


There is no "glide" into the wall on a flip turn. You should be stroking into the flip turn - I flip on my "left" in that my left hand catches and the pull helps to get me into the flip. If you're gliding with an arm (or worse, two) extended to flip, you're going it wrong.

Further, it's not about a break for your arms - it's the cardio break. Open turn people seriously slow down and manage to suck up a whole bunch of air while they're turning.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

The breathing thing is a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't choice. On an open turn you get that free extra breath at the wall, while flips lead to a longer gap than normal between breaths (assuming you breathe every cycle) and make it easy to go hypoxic.

For AOS wanting to learn flip turns, one of the things I recommend is for them to not take a breath at the wall during their open turns so that breathing gap is less of a shock when they are learning.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

I'd venture that most triathlete swimmers take an extra 0.5-1.0 sec per wall touch on open vs flip turns. Doesn't seem like a lot until you realize that with 4 wall touches per 100, you're resting an extra 2-4 sec/100, which is a very noticeable speed difference. The flip turns remove this rest, making it more akin to a steady OWS.

I know there are a few folks here that swear they do open turns as fast as a good flip turn, and good for them, but I'd wager that the vast bulk of the rest of AG triathletes will be as above, with extra rest on the open turns compared to flip turns.

I hesitated to even engage in this debate but...Maybe a good open turn (OT) can turn as fast as a slow flip turn (FT) but usually open turners lose a lot on the push off the wall b/c they have little to no concept of how to streamline off the wall. Granted there are no walls in OWS but still there is definitely great value in knowing what a good streamline feels like.

Also, another poster expressed concern that there have been "no studies" demonstrating the superiority of training with FTs over training with OTs. While some may consider this as "circumstantial evidence", I *think* it *might* be considered good evidence that almost all competitive OW swimmers do the vast majority of their training in the pool, and virtually all of these swimmers also do FTs. Of course, this is b/c virtually all fast OW swimmers cut their teeth in pool swimming but were not quite fast enough to do well at the shorter pool distances, and hence moved onto OWS though some swimmers do both.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

The problem is, when you swim hard, your legs elevate because they are being pushed up by the water you are swimming in to. That creates a LOT of drag, which is why it isn't sustainable. You need to learn to engage your glutes, hamstrings, and lower back. That will help keep you horizontal even at lower effort levels. You should be able to float, face down, horizontally on the surface of the water by engaging those muscles properly, and moving your centre of gravity from your hips, closer to your lungs (your centre of bouyancy).

There is a great video on YouTube that explains all of this.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Yes have noticed that the core alignment and fitness plays a huge, if not most critical part in swimming fast.

Sprinting uses anerobic strength and overcomes postural faults.

Just a quick test - how long can you hold a front suspended (TRX) plank?
Can you breathe reasonably well while in the position?

Swimming a sprint is a lot like that front plank. Swimming distance has the same basis, but your pelvic position has to be good and breathing decoupled from the core support or tension - if you get what I am saying.

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Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com

Do you start your intervals in the middle of the pool?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I try to visualize using my right lung as the beach ball I am balancing on top of when my right arm is extended overhead and left lung as balance point when left arm overhead. You can also practice the feel against a wall on dryland. Place your toes 8-12 inches away from the wall and place hands behind back and push against the wall with middle of chest and then roll from left to right as if kicking with no arms in the water when you breath left or right.

another thing for AOS swimmers to learn: not breathing every cycle :-)

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

There's knowing how to breathe bilaterally for sighting and chop, but even top swimmers typically breathe every cycle for distance events. Pretty much every pro you'll watch next week in Kona will be breathing every arm cycle.

There are a lot of skills that make sense for pure swimmers that don't have the ROI for AOS triathletes versus working on form and just getting more yards in.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

you know what helps with getting more yards in? flip turns ;-)

they may breathe every arm cycle in a race, but I doubt they do that training. Breathing every 3 or 3/1 helps most people's form, I think. Can help prevent shoulder issues too.

I doubt either one of us is going to be swayed to the other side - I certainly believe triathletes would be better swimmers if they'd act more like real swimmers (who do flip turns). The only skill I can think of that triathletes don't need is block starts. I also think kick sets have a low ROI.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD