my answer of "Yes" does not address outcomes or fixes or anything concerning what is right or wrong - it is simple physics*.
We agree there is racism - privilege is just a way of expressing racism as a vector - privilege is one of many types of social vectors, and white privilege one of many types of privilege vectors.
initiatives to mitigate privilege are initiatives to mitigate that specific vector

I don't mean to use physics and vectors in a literal physical sense, but to convey the notion that privilege is a factual stone-cold way of expressing racism. Perhaps the word privilege is a bad choice because the word has all sorts of values associated with it.

The specific example you cited is likely very uncommon - and yes "blanket approaches" are problematic, but individual by individual considerations would be costly and as a society we balk at even the costs of a blanket approach.

I've described this before, but I'll do it again here so that you can appreciate the perspective of some of the people on the forum.


Mitigating white privilege such that blacks don't have an unfair advantage is an admirable goal, but ONLY if it can be done:

1) Such that no white person is ever placed at an unfair disadvantage to a black person as a result

2) White people are not felt like they've somehow been neglected during the process

3) White people are not made to feel, in anyway, that people of the same color are at all responsible for these disadvantages


I think those are the priorities.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...s/williams020499.htm

I can agree to that.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Privilege is a bad choice of a word.

Someone above posted that a "privilege" is an unearned benefit.
Someone also mentioned that white people not being profiled by police is an example of "white privelege".
Therefore, not being profiled by police is an unearned benefit of being white.
If not being profiled b police is an unearned benefit of being white, then white people should be profiled by police the same as black people.
Courts have found that racial profiling by police is an infringement of peoples rights.
So, by saying that not getting profiled by police is white privilege, you are saying that the police should be infringing the rights of white people the same way they infringe the rights of black people.

Why don't we stop police from racial profiling and infringing black peoples rights instead?

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_________________________________________________

LLLEEEEEEEEEEEERRRROOOYYY JEEENNNNNKKKIIINNNNNS!!!

1.) Yes, we don't want legalized, government led, institutional racism against whites -- despite BarryP's approval.
2.) Yes, going around democracy, the constitution, or due process is not a good idea.
3.) Yes, the color of our skin doesn't make us guilty of anything.

my answer of "Yes" does not address outcomes or fixes or anything concerning what is right or wrong - it is simple physics*.

And that is exactly my point. The concept of "White privilege" and the "Fixes" we are apply do NOT deal with racism nor do they fix the problems. Your use of vectors is a pretty good description.

If we had 80% of white people that benefited from "White privilege" and 20% of minorities that benefited from "Minority privilege" and the total disparity between whites and minorities was 10% there are a number of ways we can rectify that. My point is that the use of white privilege and the assumption that all in the group are benefiting from it can leave us with a vector where the 20% minorities that have "Minority privilege" get a 25% boost and the 20% white people that do not have "White privilege" get a 25% hit and that gets rid of the 10% disparity.

I don't think this is the way to "Fix" the problem and it's not only possible, but probable, to happen under many of these policies. Privileged white people won't take the hit and privileged minorities won't take the hit, it will be the poor that need the help that won't get it. In this case more then likely poor white people.

Perhaps the word privilege is a bad choice because the word has all sorts of values associated with it.

I don't think privilege is as much of the offender of bad choice in the phrase "White privilege" as is the word white. "White privilege" ends up being a blanket statement, to most, meaning "All white people have privilege". I think a more appropriate term would be "Race privilege" mean a privilege you receive because of your race. This of course can apply to anyone and will change under various circumstances.

This of course will never be used because by doing so it admits that all races can have privilege under various circumstances and opens up a more honest, pointed and serious discussion about when, how, whom and why race privilege exists.

~Matt

Mitigating white privilege such that blacks don't have an unfair advantage is an admirable goal, but ONLY if it can be done:

1) Such that no white person is ever placed at an unfair disadvantage to a black person as a result

What do you mean by "Unfair advantage"? I personally don't think anyone of any race should be placed at an unfair disadvantage solely because of their race. That is racism. This type of thing should not exist in any shape or form by our government as it is the governments charge to treat everyone equally.

Sadly there is no way to force individuals to adapt such a mentality and of course some people will always be racist and make racist decisions. "Fixing" this issue is not the charge of the government it is the job of society and like any real social change it will take a long time, education....and more time.

I can't speak for other people but to me your other two "Priorities" come across as a bit whiney and meaningless. I don't know of anyone who looks at this as "It makes me feel..."

I think those are the priorities.

The only priority I have is equality under the law. Not equality of outcome. Not equality of emotion or feeling. But equality under the law. When you have a mindset like "White privilege" which is so nebulous and in many ways completely flawed as a "Guide post" for both race relations and even public policy you don't end up with equality under the law. Until we accept that the problem is racism not some nebulous advantage all white people have we will never be able to solve the problem.

~Matt

Nope. Unfair disadvantage.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Wow, I must say I'm impressed. You and The Forger will openly admit that you are mainly concerned about yourselves and don't really care much for the continued oppression of minorities.

I'll take that over the obtuse passive aggressive, "pretend to care, but really don't" that we're used to hearing.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

You are a dumbass, because that's not what I said. You've got no nuance Barry. You can only fight against straw men. Sad.

No, what you said amounts to you are all for abolishing the oppression of minorities, provided that its not inconvenient for you in any way.

#1 says that no single white person shall be placed at an unfair disadvantage to a single black person. The status quo is that most black people are placed at an unfair disadvantage to most white people. You would prefer the status quo to the alternative of a single white person being disadvantaged relative to a single black person.

If you don't think that that accurately describes your position, then tell me what inconveniences you'd be willing to accept.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

In an ideal world nobody gets inconvenienced and going forward everyone is treated fairly and equal.

Two wrongs don't make something something...

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

You need to broaden your horizons. There's porn out there for every taste or fetish. A simple google search will find you all the pasty ass white dude porn you so crave.

Black, Hispanic, Asian girl loves BWC should do the trick.

Or SWC if that is your thing or want it to be more reflective of you. haha

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Free will can help guide oppressed individuals onto paths of success. Free will can help them "get out". What it can't do is change the situation for an entire society of oppressed people. It can't un-create the thing they are all trying to "get out" of.

What about in the real world where laws are in place to treat everyone equally and fairly, but systematic racism still exists?

And what about in the real world where you can't simultaneously have equal access to education and equal funding for education? Poor people don't have the tax base for schools that middle and upper middle class people do.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

What inconveniences have you got? Seriously, I wouldn't dismiss inconveniences without consideration. Politically, I'm tied to liberty, freedom, and a government that is color blind. But there's all kinds of room for people that really want solutions. As an example, I wouldn't mind paying more in local taxes for "police solution X" if it meant better police brutality metrics.

Would you pay for a better school in someone else's neighborhood?

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

I already do.


To the extent the money goes to satisfy a certain minimum standard, I'm totally on board with it. I'm hoping that's mostly the case.

Wow, I must say I'm impressed. You and The Forger will openly admit that you are mainly concerned about yourselves and don't really care much for the continued oppression of minorities.

Are you more concerned about the "continued oppression of minorities" than you are about yourself? Assuming you are since you made the accusation against SH and Forge, what exactly have you done about it?

What have you given up to help in the fight against the "continued oppression of minorities".

(And wearing a button doesn't count.)

I'd love to say yes, but the reality is no. I, like most people, concern myself more with family, close friends, community, etc. more than most humanitarian issues. Just being honest.


I vote in favor of improvements, and I push the dialogue in that direction hoping that you, they, and everyone else will do the same.


I think I know where you are going with this and I'll just say watch out for false dichotomies and false equivalencies.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485