Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: Really embarrassing attendance record from female pros at prize purse events... [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
desert dude wrote:
Quote:
There are not enough female pros for the number of races.


On the flip side of that coin is that 8/10 men will take a pro card if they qualify for one. maybe, maybe 5/10 females will take their pro card. I'd be willing to be it is slightly <50%.

Using that as reference, then female athletes are typically significantly smarter than male athletes.
Quote Reply
Re: Really embarrassing attendance record from female pros at prize purse events... [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
A bit of an N=1 example but what Brian said was my experience. I used to be on a tri team a while back and maybe 6/10 guys who qualified for their cards got them and no women got them and at least 3 qualified. This was under the easier standard that was in place until maybe 7-8 years ago. And one woman in particular could have been getting prize money, but she just didn't see the point because she liked racing as an age grouper. Whereas most of the guys I knew were doing it because it made race entry easier(particularly at the IM level at the time).

And the idea that good women aren't getting their pro card does support the notion of "open races" that I've long been in favor of. Instead of age groups from 18/21-40, there should just be an open race.
Quote Reply
Re: Really embarrassing attendance record from female pros at prize purse events... [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The standards are the same for both M&W. At any WTC race with prize money the top 3 can get a pro card. Collegiate nationals, USAT Nationals the top 8 auto qualify etc.

Even with same standards, if 20 guys qualify over 5 races about 15 turn pro. But with women 20 qualify and maybe 5 will turn pro.

For my guys I make them now hit the standard 2x before they can take a pro card. For my women I often have to beg them to take a pro card even if they hit the standard 3-4-5x.

For instance I had a women who didn't finish out of the top 10 women overall in any 70.3 or IM for a 2 year period except Kona where she was 3rd in her AG, was top 5 overall in a few 70.3's even and a sub 9:30 IM type. Didn't want to take a pro card. No matter what analysis I did she said she just does tri's for fun.

There may be too many pro's racing triathlon but there aren't enough female pros racing triathlon.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Quote Reply
Re: Really embarrassing attendance record from female pros at prize purse events... [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
JoeO wrote:
The entire idea of having a pro "class" for which you have to qualify and pay is foolish to begin with. The restrictions on prize money payouts on races are equally foolish. It is nothing but an attempt by a sports federation to maintain power and control. There is no special training that comes with a pro-card. We have pros who hardly even know how to change a flat. The pro-card thing does absolutely nothing for the sport.

It is not difficult to separate triathletes based on previous performance and send off elites first. Let races payout whatever prize money they want to whoever the finishes first.


I think the main distinction is that the pros have a "sparser" race, have more anti drafting officials around them and are subject to some degree of in and out of competition dope testing. Other than that, I agree with you. The fact that age groupers are no really subject to any level of testing alone should keep them out of the pro race.
Last edited by: devashish_paul: Aug 29, 16 17:55
Quote Reply
Re: Really embarrassing attendance record from female pros at prize purse events... [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/06/feature/totally-amateur_408457

Ah but this us where you are wrong. USAT briefly looked at a Category system but it was quickly killed. This would require a cat system of some sort in order to place people in the appropriate wave. (BTW I'm all for a cat system for triathlon, have been for at least a decade if you want to search the archives here)

For instance I race elite around the region I live in and I'm not really winning races anymore. There are people racing elite around here that are 20+ min back in a long sprint (~ 1:20 to complete for me, 1:40 for them). Clearly they are not elite in that sense even on a regional level but yet they can register & race elite.

Great idea but the way racing is set up now hard to implement.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Quote Reply
Re: Really embarrassing attendance record from female pros at prize purse events... [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
desert dude wrote:
The standards are the same for both M&W. At any WTC race with prize money the top 3 can get a pro card. Collegiate nationals, USAT Nationals the top 8 auto qualify etc.

Even with same standards, if 20 guys qualify over 5 races about 15 turn pro. But with women 20 qualify and maybe 5 will turn pro.

For my guys I make them now hit the standard 2x before they can take a pro card. For my women I often have to beg them to take a pro card even if they hit the standard 3-4-5x.

For instance I had a women who didn't finish out of the top 10 women overall in any 70.3 or IM for a 2 year period except Kona where she was 3rd in her AG, was top 5 overall in a few 70.3's even and a sub 9:30 IM type. Didn't want to take a pro card. No matter what analysis I did she said she just does tri's for fun.

There may be too many pro's racing triathlon but there aren't enough female pros racing triathlon.

For most, males have big ego's to go pro, for females, for most, it is all about fun.

Same I saw at work as an engineer.

Nothing wrong with males and females being a little different on what they think is important in life!!

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Quote Reply
Re: Really embarrassing attendance record from female pros at prize purse events... [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Though I dislike the tone and use of the term "embarrassing," I too have been very frustrated to see the sparse fields female pro fields at many IM and 70.3 events. Living in North America, my greatest frustration primarily stems from the small fields lacking depth at Vineman and Placid, and to some extent IMMT. First of all, I feel like it does not help the 50 Women to Kona movement. Likely the lack of attendance is hurting it. Surely there are fewer female pros, but I also cannot help but question what many female pros, specifically the hundreds who were not gunning for a KQ in 2016, are thinking when picking their races. More than a handful of North American female pros opted out of these races to race in Europe. Surprisingly many of these women even live on the east coast! I mean it is great that they can afford to take the risk to fly to Europe and race, and for some it was a good return on investment, but my guess is they could have gotten an even greater return on investment racing here. It is possible that many of these women do not approach their race selection as a business decision, and maybe they have the financial stability and other sources of income and funding that they don't have to, but in my opinion, when racing as a pro trying to make a living in the sport, choosing where/when to race is a business decision. Though I am and can only speak for myself on this matter.

The other reason I feel frustrated when I see these results is that I feel like I missed an opportunity to go make some good money. Because I fractured my neck in November, Ironman racing fell off my radar for the year. But maybe if I knew that I could put together a half-way decent race, and baring any major catastrophe, I would have pushed harder to do Placid, Vineman, or IMMT and I likely could have earned a good paycheck. Had I not had the injury setback, and with the addition of the entry lists showing the pros who have entered any given race, I am almost positive I would have been on the starting line of one of those races this year.

To build off of what one poster said about racing pro for the money, while I did not choose to race professionally for the money, I almost cannot afford to go to a race and not walk away with a paycheck. My expenses are fairly minimal and I work part time, but the sport is so expensive and I do not have a ton of sponsorship support so it hurts my bottom line to not finish in the money. It does make racing much less fun to have to approach racing as a business decision, but it is kind of a necessity. I made a great decision to race Rev3 Williamsburg, as I had a free place to stay and it was driving distance, it was a bonus to find out only five women showed up to race and a bigger bonus to earn a substantial paycheck to cover expenses and then some. Timberman was a not so great decision, and I ended up in the red. Rev3 Maine falls in between, I made some money, but not enough to break even on the trip.

I would not be surprised to see prize money disappear from many more WTC events, and honestly I can't say I'd be all that mad about it, we female pros will have no one to blame but ourselves. There are too many races with fewer female finishers than prize money places. Though I am almost certain they will continue to offer prize money, I would be very disappointed if Rev3 did away with their purses because of lack of female pro attendance. I did what I could to support their races this year and feel they offer a great opportunity for developing pros, such as myself, to start climbing the ranks and make some money. I cannot understand why so many women forgo racing Rev3 and opt to finish at the back of the pack at multiple 70.3 races. I know from experience, the later is not so much fun.

Emily Sherrard
@EmSher1
Powered by
Accelerate3 Coaching
Quote Reply
Re: Really embarrassing attendance record from female pros at prize purse events... [EmSher] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
EmSher wrote:
Though I dislike the tone and use of the term "embarrassing," I too have been very frustrated to see the sparse fields female pro fields at many IM and 70.3 events. Living in North America, my greatest frustration primarily stems from the small fields lacking depth at Vineman and Placid, and to some extent IMMT. First of all, I feel like it does not help the 50 Women to Kona movement. Likely the lack of attendance is hurting it. Surely there are fewer female pros, but I also cannot help but question what many female pros, specifically the hundreds who were not gunning for a KQ in 2016, are thinking when picking their races. More than a handful of North American female pros opted out of these races to race in Europe. Surprisingly many of these women even live on the east coast! I mean it is great that they can afford to take the risk to fly to Europe and race, and for some it was a good return on investment, but my guess is they could have gotten an even greater return on investment racing here. It is possible that many of these women do not approach their race selection as a business decision, and maybe they have the financial stability and other sources of income and funding that they don't have to, but in my opinion, when racing as a pro trying to make a living in the sport, choosing where/when to race is a business decision. Though I am and can only speak for myself on this matter.

The other reason I feel frustrated when I see these results is that I feel like I missed an opportunity to go make some good money. Because I fractured my neck in November, Ironman racing fell off my radar for the year. But maybe if I knew that I could put together a half-way decent race, and baring any major catastrophe, I would have pushed harder to do Placid, Vineman, or IMMT and I likely could have earned a good paycheck. Had I not had the injury setback, and with the addition of the entry lists showing the pros who have entered any given race, I am almost positive I would have been on the starting line of one of those races this year.

To build off of what one poster said about racing pro for the money, while I did not choose to race professionally for the money, I almost cannot afford to go to a race and not walk away with a paycheck. My expenses are fairly minimal and I work part time, but the sport is so expensive and I do not have a ton of sponsorship support so it hurts my bottom line to not finish in the money. It does make racing much less fun to have to approach racing as a business decision, but it is kind of a necessity. I made a great decision to race Rev3 Williamsburg, as I had a free place to stay and it was driving distance, it was a bonus to find out only five women showed up to race and a bigger bonus to earn a substantial paycheck to cover expenses and then some. Timberman was a not so great decision, and I ended up in the red. Rev3 Maine falls in between, I made some money, but not enough to break even on the trip.

I would not be surprised to see prize money disappear from many more WTC events, and honestly I can't say I'd be all that mad about it, we female pros will have no one to blame but ourselves. There are too many races with fewer female finishers than prize money places. Though I am almost certain they will continue to offer prize money, I would be very disappointed if Rev3 did away with their purses because of lack of female pro attendance. I did what I could to support their races this year and feel they offer a great opportunity for developing pros, such as myself, to start climbing the ranks and make some money. I cannot understand why so many women forgo racing Rev3 and opt to finish at the back of the pack at multiple 70.3 races. I know from experience, the later is not so much fun.

First of all best of luck with your recovery. Neck and head injuries truly suck.

I did not post this other angle earlier in the thread, but you kind of alluded to it in your posting when mentioning that perhaps some pros have access to other sources of income. Just in general if a person's parents or spouse has a stable income that can support an entire family a pro spouse or pro tri offspring can follow a profession than can be part passion that might not be high paying. It's possible that more pro women than pro men have this option, which is thereby reflected in the numbers at races. With more male pros in general, there will be more that need to be 100% self funded thus filling out race fields. That's just a matter of numbers and the male fields will be filled out of necessity. If a pro has other sources of income, they can more easily choose to pass up races that are "low value" from a KPR angle even though they are higher value for prize purse. And if someone is pursuing the pro path due to passion and not bound by finances, they can ignore prize purses to work on the road to Kona. To some degree, going back to how age groupers choose races too.
Quote Reply
Re: Really embarrassing attendance record from female pros at prize purse events... [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ericmulk wrote:
As a female pro, you should post more often since you can provide a diff perspective to this AG male-dominated forum.

Why? So much of the fluff on the forum. As for women and races, maybe it has changed in the last couple of years, but on average a couple years ago at least, women had to do about a whole full race to lock up there spots.

If anything, there are far too many men. Instead of worrying about 50 women, maybe men should be capped at 35 as well.
Quote Reply
Re: Really embarrassing attendance record from female pros at prize purse events... [Maui5150] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Maui5150 wrote:
ericmulk wrote:

As a female pro, you should post more often since you can provide a diff perspective to this AG male-dominated forum.


Why? So much of the fluff on the forum. As for women and races, maybe it has changed in the last couple of years, but on average a couple years ago at least, women had to do about a whole full race to lock up there spots. If anything, there are far too many men. Instead of worrying about 50 women, maybe men should be capped at 35 as well.

I have no opinion on the 35 vs 50 debate. I was simply saying that a female pro can provide a diff perspective from a male pro, or a male or female top AG-er, MOP AG-er, BOP AG-er, etc. That is all, period. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Quote Reply
Re: Really embarrassing attendance record from female pros at prize purse events... [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ericmulk wrote:
I have no opinion on the 35 vs 50 debate. I was simply saying that a female pro can provide a diff perspective from a male pro, or a male or female top AG-er, MOP AG-er, BOP AG-er, etc. That is all, period. :)

I hear you. But seriously... Most of the AG-er, MOP, etc, are incapable or don't care.

I have found the female pros to be approachable, happy to share and discuss, but seriously... Most forums are a cluster of egos and hash slinging. The career of a pro triathlete is short, and do they really need the hassle. When you really go through the threads, see the ego and flame wars, I understand why more pros avoid the fray. Piece of mind is priceless.

Also given the lack of real money in the sport, there are better ways for a pro to build their brand than posting on a forum like this, especially where "opinions' may be involved.

Hope you have been well
Quote Reply
Re: Really embarrassing attendance record from female pros at prize purse events... [Maui5150] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Maui5150 wrote:
ericmulk wrote:

I have no opinion on the 35 vs 50 debate. I was simply saying that a female pro can provide a diff perspective from a male pro, or a male or female top AG-er, MOP AG-er, BOP AG-er, etc. That is all, period. :)


I hear you. But seriously... Most of the AG-er, MOP, etc, are incapable or don't care. I have found the female pros to be approachable, happy to share and discuss, but seriously... Most forums are a cluster of egos and hash slinging. The career of a pro triathlete is short, and do they really need the hassle. When you really go through the threads, see the ego and flame wars, I understand why more pros avoid the fray. Piece of mind is priceless.
Also given the lack of real money in the sport, there are better ways for a pro to build their brand than posting on a forum like this, especially where "opinions' may be involved.
Hope you have been well.

Ya, I can def see why a pro just would not want to get involved in "the ego and flame wars".


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
Quote Reply
Re: Really embarrassing attendance record from female pros at prize purse events... [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
We saw that today with the Brad Williams thread. Slowtwitch at its finest.

Before the Slowtwitch Police yells at me, I edited my post because I spelled Slowtwitch wrong on my phone.

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
Last edited by: BryanD: Aug 30, 16 21:14
Quote Reply
Re: Really embarrassing attendance record from female pros at prize purse events... [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think some of the personal crap fests are draining as it is, let alone jumping into the fray of the anonymous haven of hasbeens, wannabes, and neverwills.

Time is the most precious commodity we have. Forums, FB, and the like are time sucks. It can be nice to maintain a connection over a distance, but outside of that, it quickly can be a toxic parasite.
Quote Reply
Re: Really embarrassing attendance record from female pros at prize purse events... [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
There is no doubt that many pros have other sources of income, and the published prize money lists underscore why this is necessary. There are not many pros who are making a living off of prize money alone, and while we do not know what pros bring in from endorsements it probably does not add up to covering living costs for most. You are likely correct in saying that the pros that have other sources of income (i.e. family, spouse, job, savings) and those that have a very secure financial situation are likely the ones who are able to select races independently of prize money and potential for earning prize money. Though I would argue that more men than women fall into this situation just based on the gross number of male pros and that fact that 50+ male pros show up to a stacked race paying only 8-10 deep.

Also, the way that Ironman structures KPR and prize purse, the races with a bigger purse have more KPR points, so it is hard to say that someone is chasing KPR over prize money. Though they likely are, since KQ apparently trumps making money. Again, probably a poor business decision for health and longevity in the sport.

And thank you Dev. It has been a challenge to come back from the injuries, I underestimated how much they suck, but fortunately am slowly but surely heading in the right direction.

Emily Sherrard
@EmSher1
Powered by
Accelerate3 Coaching
Quote Reply
Re: Really embarrassing attendance record from female pros at prize purse events... [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
devashish_paul wrote:

I think the main distinction is that the pros have a "sparser" race, have more anti drafting officials around them and are subject to some degree of in and out of competition dope testing. Other than that, I agree with you. The fact that age groupers are no really subject to any level of testing alone should keep them out of the pro race.

This is confusing cause and effect. The only reason that age groupers are not subject to proper testing is that there is a pro class in the first place who are the only ones who can win money.

Do what other sports do and make anyone eligible to win money and therefore eligible to be OOC tested. The people who actually start winning races will form your pool of elite wave athletes (for the sparser race) and your candidates for OOC testing. Just like other sports
Quote Reply

Prev Next