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Re: Over biking or poor run fitness [windschatten] [ In reply to ]
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windschatten wrote:
I'd go by heart rate and RPE. RPE requires experience over the race distance, though. Most people with PM's can't do RPE...that's why they need a PM.

I don't think your second sentence is true. Everybody I know with a PM will also factor in HR and RPE as well. Racing on pure power alone and ignoring what your body is telling you isn't something I've heard anybody advise. What a PM can do is really help you to calibrate/gauge your RPE better, by training and racing regularly with all 3 you'll have more tools at your disposal to pace you through a race than somebody who is relying on just RPE and/or HR.

The other problem is that IM is a relatively rare and hard to replicate event for most people, and that can throw HR and RPE off considerably. I know I never do a long swim then long bike in training, and it's pretty rare that I do century rides when fully tapered. I find RPE to be a pretty poor guide for the first third or so of the IM bike - the fact that I'm fully tapered, adrenaline pumping for race day, and nicely warmed up by the swim means that my RPE for any given effort level feels way lower/easier than it ever would on a training ride. I also find I can sustain a higher average HR when tapered and in race conditions than I ever do in training. Looking at both is better than looking at either one (since RPE is telling me I can go harder but HR is telling me to slow down), having power as well would be better still.
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Re: Over biking or poor run fitness [Brett runs] [ In reply to ]
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Plan for nutrition was a bottle of gatorade every 10 miles with a ~200 calorie solid food every 25 miles or so. That would have given me about 3k calories for the ride. This puts me at 500 cal/hour which is a little much but I also knew that I may miss some solid food here and there because I was trying to grab it from the aide stations. This ended up not working because the race was colder than the my normal training weather. I had to stop taking in fluid because of needing to pee (peed 3-4 times on the course). I replaced it with more solid food calories so I may have come in a little under nourished but I felt pretty good. Run course I kept up with 2 gatorade cups at each station and I slowly ate through my bloks through the first loop of the course. Once I started to blow up I went with soda and salt which absolutely kept me from shuffling to the finish. I will definitely be starting the soda sooner in the run since it made a big difference for me.
Last edited by: FuzzyRunner: Aug 24, 16 6:33
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Re: Over biking or poor run fitness [windschatten] [ In reply to ]
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windschatten wrote:
Most people with PM's can't do RPE...that's why they need a PM.

This is just not true, PMs are a great way to calibrate your RPE. You really do learn how one wattage is really easy at the beginning of a ride can be really hard to hold at the end of a ride. So you get very good at understanding how hard to go at the beginning of a bike leg when it feels easy and how hard to go at the end when it feels hard.
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Re: Over biking or poor run fitness [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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sn't time just about the worst metric you can use to evaluate what you can do on race day? Traffic, stopping at intersections, slowing down / stopping to refuel, etc. all that slows down your time (not to mention that most of us don't train in full race gear).

Most of my training rides have times that are nowhere close to my race times (even though they sometimes have similar power outputs).



I think this is a fault of many - their training rides are all broken up with all these stops, and then on race day, they are at it non-stop for 5 - 6 hours. That's a big difference.

My final IM prep rides, were either done solo or with a couple of other like-minded, similar fitness folks and we would ride pretty darn close to IM race pace/effort for 5 hours or perhaps a bit longer. ONLY stopping to pick up food/water, and making those stops as quick as possible.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Over biking or poor run fitness [FuzzyRunner] [ In reply to ]
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Could be nutrition/hydration as well on the bike. I blew up at a recent Oly where I botched this. You ever done any sort of sweat tests or addressed how much you should be taking in on the bike vs. industry standards, i.e. gel or two every hour, swig of water every 20, etc.?

Could be a lot of things.. run fitness, bike fitness, nutrition, combo of things.
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Re: Over biking or poor run fitness [xeon] [ In reply to ]
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I am planning for a top 10 AG finish at IM Louiseville without a power meter. Here are some thoughts about my strategy and experiences.
1) Will set HR monitor alarms- upper alarm 155 (85% of max), lower alarm 138 (75% of max).
2) Goal HR should be around 152. The average will hopefully be about 150.
3) Feel - the uphills and the first part of the bike race, should feel very easy. The downhills and end part of the bike should feel hard.
4) Nutrition- eat regularly but especially on climbs (so as to avoid riding too hard)
Shift from more solid to less solid food as the race goes on.

Notes:
1) The bike ride should involve fighting a counter intuitive battle. The race will "feel" easy at the beginning and it is tempting to let the heart rate go up. The ride will "feel hard" towards the end and it is tempting to let HR fall.
Both tendencies need to be fought.
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Re: Over biking or poor run fitness [dirtymangos] [ In reply to ]
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What makes an Ironman different from other forms of racing is that there are two ways to overcook the bike.
1) You can go to fast and overwork your cardio-system and your muscles. (Like in every other race).
2) Go so hard that you cannot bring an optimal amount of calories into the body. (The harder you are going, the less effective you are at digesting).

People seem to think that the consequences of over-biking are terrible in an Ironman.
I disagree with this belief.


Perfect execution will not prevent a melt down on the run.
It simply post-pones it.
Last edited by: dirtymangos: Aug 24, 16 10:23
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Re: Over biking or poor run fitness [FuzzyRunner] [ In reply to ]
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FuzzyRunner wrote:
Plan for nutrition was a bottle of gatorade every 10 miles with a ~200 calorie solid food every 25 miles or so. That would have given me about 3k calories for the ride. This puts me at 500 cal/hour which is a little much but I also knew that I may miss some solid food here and there because I was trying to grab it from the aide stations. This ended up not working because the race was colder than the my normal training weather. I had to stop taking in fluid because of needing to pee (peed 3-4 times on the course). I replaced it with more solid food calories so I may have come in a little under nourished but I felt pretty good. Run course I kept up with 2 gatorade cups at each station and I slowly ate through my bloks through the first loop of the course. Once I started to blow up I went with soda and salt which absolutely kept me from shuffling to the finish. I will definitely be starting the soda sooner in the run since it made a big difference for me.

Do you take solid food on in training? I took solid food in my first two ironman races and had a ~15min positive run split. Went to gels and tailwind only and that went to 1min.

Sounds like you took on too much solid food and not enough liquid and your body started to shut down a bit.
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Re: Over biking or poor run fitness [Brett runs] [ In reply to ]
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I am used to taking in solid food during my workouts. I will say that I did take in more solids than I was expecting because of the cooler temps. I did not have any GI issues though. I got sick of taking in gatorade and my bloks but no real discomfort.
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Re: Over biking or poor run fitness [dirtymangos] [ In reply to ]
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dirtymangos wrote:
I am planning for a top 10 AG finish at IM Louiseville without a power meter. Here are some thoughts about my strategy and experiences.
1) Will set HR monitor alarms- upper alarm 155 (85% of max), lower alarm 138 (75% of max).
2) Goal HR should be around 152. The average will hopefully be about 150.
3) Feel - the uphills and the first part of the bike race, should feel very easy. The downhills and end part of the bike should feel hard.
4) Nutrition- eat regularly but especially on climbs (so as to avoid riding too hard)
Shift from more solid to less solid food as the race goes on.

Notes:
1) The bike ride should involve fighting a counter intuitive battle. The race will "feel" easy at the beginning and it is tempting to let the heart rate go up. The ride will "feel hard" towards the end and it is tempting to let HR fall.
Both tendencies need to be fought.

that's funny, i shift from less solid to more solid as the race goes on. 1 hour left on the bike i'm eating solid food, 30 mins left is when i switch back to less solid. i hate going into the marathon with a gut full of GU. a cliff bar/pro bar keeps my hunger away and i can start fueling with liquids slowly on the run again.

for anyone looking for advice... practice on your long rides!!! i also switch to more solid foods the colder the race is and more liquid the hotter the race is. works for me.
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Re: Over biking or poor run fitness [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Your logic makes too much sense. It can't be that easy....:)
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Re: Over biking or poor run fitness [FuzzyRunner] [ In reply to ]
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FuzzyRunner wrote:
So what I am getting from all of this is that I probably won't be able to figure out what happened this past race but get a power meter for the next or just train more so I understand my pacing better.

Well- it sounds like you run about as much as I and we are similar speeds. With that said, I feel like I don't run much and I would not tell someone I do. I can hold pace for exactly what I trained.... Which is anywhere from 8-13 miles of the run. I don't think it has anything to do with the bike. I don't think slowing down on the bike would do much for me on the run. I think it's about expectations of what your training is. If you are trained to ride at X pace, you will. I ride enough to justify the 112 mile bike and ride at pace. However, I never had enough run training to expect a worthy marathon pace. Why do you think your split dropped so much on your open marathon.....

What's your long run in training? I bet it's 8-10 miles.
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Re: Over biking or poor run fitness [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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sciguy wrote:
FuzzyRunner wrote:


If you don't have a power meter, what ways are there to figure out if you over biked or your run fitness was poor after a less than ideal ironman Marathon?


The first third of the bike should have felt ridiculously easy and you should have seen a fair number of your competition passing you.

The second third should still have felt too easy but not quite so ridiculously as the first third.

The final third should begin to feel as if you're actually been doing some work but still pretty darn easy.

If you're ever going so hard that you're breathing hard on the bike then it's too hard. It should have been a long easy ride.

Almost all new and the majority of experienced IMers over bike compared to what would give them the best overall time.



Hugh

Why is that? I'm doing my first IM soon and am looking at the top AGers (overall and in my AG) and they are seem to overbike and fade badly in the run, even the good runners. I'd be close to top 10, but my bike goal time is way off what most of the top 20 (for my AG) are riding, which leaves me worried. I want to race conservative, so easy bike, like a training ride and easy pace for the run for the first portion. But in some ways racing conservatively is a high risk strategy in that when I eventually go to pick up the pace with say 10 miles to go, I may just be too fatigued to go faster. It seems negatively split IM runs are as rare as hens teeth.

Note my HM run times are high 1.20s, never done a marathon or IM. I'd be happy with 3.30 - 3.40. I was aiming to pace it (very roughly):

1st 8.5 - 8.25 min/mile
2nd 8.5 - 8.10
3rd 8.5 - gradually building pace
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Re: Over biking or poor run fitness [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
what does your training tell you you were capable of riding? An honest review of your training will tell you more than a few people guessing that you did or didn't overbike/under run train.

I'll give you an example of what you should be looking for. Had an athlete come to me consistently riding ~ 5:25-5:40 for 105-115 miles on long training rides, mostly steady state.

Race day rides 5:10 you can probably guess how the run turned out


Plot twist:

Said athlete was drafting and saved bunch of energy and ran a PR on the marathon and achived KQ!


Speed kills unless you have speed skills!!!
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Re: Over biking or poor run fitness [patsullivan6630] [ In reply to ]
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patsullivan6630 wrote:
I know people are going to destroy me after this but over-biking is a symptom of poor bike training, not poor run training. Follow me through here, if you can normally run a 10K in say, 52 minutes, not extremely fast but better than most people off the street. If you are running the 10K in 1:10 in an Oly, then the problem was your bike fitness. In order to bike the speed you wanted to go and still run close to your open 10K pace, your fitness needs to improve on the bike. I am not saying don't dump a bunch of training into the run, that will always pay dividends for you. What I am saying is that if it is clear that you are capable of biking the speed you want, if it impacts your run you need to improve a certain percentage on the bike so you don't burn up your running energies.

So what's the difference between poor bike training and overbiking?

I'm bike fit, but if I ride a 4.40 I'm not going to be running anywhere fast. You ride according to your training.
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Re: Over biking or poor run fitness [Gashman] [ In reply to ]
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The second part of the marathon is a mental game and everyone fades no matter how hard they biked.
The thing is people expect the IM marathon to feel like a standalone run but it's nowhere near that.. I'm my opinion is two parts: experience / knowing how to troubleshoot and mental toughness. You need to HTFU in the second half and that's that... I think most people just fold at the first sign of shit feeling hard.
Your motivation will be tested during that run.. guaranteed. If you can answer the question: why am I doing this? and come up with a strong answer it can make the difference between having a great race and run/walking/jogging to a mediocre one.

What's your CdA?
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