Here is an article about a marathon. Might be abke to find out what happened . I would also look up the pga case. Good luck http://www.runnersworld.com/...against-hand-cyclist
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Re: Wounded Vet Wheelchair Racer Can't Get Answer From IM Maryland or IM Headquarters [a10co91]
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Re: Wounded Vet Wheelchair Racer Can't Get Answer From IM Maryland or IM Headquarters [Sidney Porter]
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Super article! Thanks
Re: Wounded Vet Wheelchair Racer Can't Get Answer From IM Maryland or IM Headquarters [Sidney Porter]
[ In reply to ]
Sidney Porter wrote:
a10co91 wrote:
For the most part wheelchair athletes including handcycle athletes do not need accommodation, the just need permission. That being said there are a few who may require some sort of special support from a race or venue. Most disabled athletes want nothing more than to compete. As far as answering your question, there is really not much keeping any Ironman course from being handcycle friendly. Arizona has only the stairs that would be a slight issue but they are a slight issue for able body people as well and that's why they have volunteers helping on the steps for the swim exit. I'm not to sure about Maryland but with a little accommodation they can all work. Ironman will accommodate all other disabilities except for wheelchair/handcycle athletes. Maybe they don't want to have to get a few accessible port-o-johns. Believe me when I say that most wheelchair athletes will do what they need to do to be able to race and will need little to no accommodation. Ironman refuses to include us because it does not want to, not because it can't.
As far as Ironman Arizona is concerned, it was open to handcycles but for the bike course crowding reason they are no longer allowed. I learned this after flying to Phoenix from Denver, renting a hotel, and renting a car to volunteer in 2015. While there a friend and I were getting coffee at Starbucks and were in line with Three Ironman race officials. I struck up a conversation with them and the specific topic of conversation was me doing Ironman Arizona 2016. The three of them spent the next ten minutes talking to my friend and I and answering our questions about what was expected of me to do the race in 2016. The head official (head of an entire global region for Ironman) then asked for my email address and sent me an email on the spot. He told me I didn't need to wait in line the next morning and to send him an email next week and he would send me a link to register. Our coffee was ready, we said "glad to meet you and see you next year," shook hands and went on our way to our volunteer aid station. At no time did any of the three ever mention that Arizona was not a handcycle course.
The next morning my friend and I woke up at 4:00am and proceeded straight to the registration tent, what kind of friend would I be if I made him go alone. We were about 200 people back and got to the tent after about 30 minutes, I figured since I was there and there were still slots I might as well register, so I did. Received my link a week or so later and registered as a handcycle athlete. Fast forward to May 31, 2016. I received an email stating that Ironman Arizona "due to course restrictions" was not an approved handcycle course and I needed to talk to them immediately. Wanting to deal with this issue as person to person as possible, I called the young woman four separate times and left voice messages explaining the above details about who I spoke with and the important details of our conversation. I never heard any more about the issue and figured she must have spoken with him and the situation had been resolved.
On August 18th I received an email stating that on May 31, 2015 she had sent me an email stating Ironman Arizona was not an approved handcycle course and to get in touch with her immediately. Within two minutes of receiving the email I called three times and there was no answer, again I left voice messages explaining everything. Just to be sure I also sent an email explaining everything and received no reply that day. I waited a couple of days and called again and received no answer. I emailed and immediately received an auto response stating she would be out of the office working Ironman CDA and would have spotty Internet. A few days later she sent an email saying she had spoken with the official I and my friend spoke with in Tempe, the regional race director, and the Arizona race director and they all agreed "we can not make policy changes and must adhere to our current guidelines." She offered to transfer my entry to a handcycle friendly race or a full refund.
Over the next three weeks I have had contact with the official I spoke to in Tempe a few times and and yesterday received his final answer no to Ironman Arizona.
That is where we stand now but I am by no means done fighting.
Agree. I think that this needs to go above WTC. You've given them a shot and they have zero interest in helping you. I would approach local city leaders and even local media outlets about the situation at hand and put some external pressure on them to do the right thing.
Re: Wounded Vet Wheelchair Racer Can't Get Answer From IM Maryland or IM Headquarters [devashish_paul]
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You do relief your argument about accessibility makes ZERO sense, right?
Starbucks and Walmart are shopping establishments that must comply with the ADA and provide accommodation for those with disabilities. This would apply to anyone shopping at their stores, as well as shopping there. It would also apply to those who work for Ironman.
However, with regards to racers Ironman is allowed, in the interest of racer safety and welfare, to restrict who may enter their races if there is need for non-conventional triathlon equipment.
Starbucks and Walmart are shopping establishments that must comply with the ADA and provide accommodation for those with disabilities. This would apply to anyone shopping at their stores, as well as shopping there. It would also apply to those who work for Ironman.
However, with regards to racers Ironman is allowed, in the interest of racer safety and welfare, to restrict who may enter their races if there is need for non-conventional triathlon equipment.
Re: Wounded Vet Wheelchair Racer Can't Get Answer From IM Maryland or IM Headquarters [Macho Grande]
[ In reply to ]
Macho Grande wrote:
You do relief your argument about accessibility makes ZERO sense, right? Starbucks and Walmart are shopping establishments that must comply with the ADA and provide accommodation for those with disabilities. This would apply to anyone shopping at their stores, as well as shopping there. It would also apply to those who work for Ironman.
However, with regards to racers Ironman is allowed, in the interest of racer safety and welfare, to restrict who may enter their races if there is need for non-conventional triathlon equipment.
Para-Triathletes are not using non-conventional triathlon equipment. They are fully in the guidelines of what the ITU and 99% of what the governing bodies would deem as conventional.
I am truly at a loss of why they are discriminating against Para-Triathletes, maybe we don't provide enough money for them or the 1-2 people that due race are too high maintenance for them to handle.
My Blog of Me
Re: Wounded Vet Wheelchair Racer Can't Get Answer From IM Maryland or IM Headquarters [Dan.B.]
[ In reply to ]
What's the status here for you? And a10co91? Do you guys still need help with WTC?
"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
Re: Wounded Vet Wheelchair Racer Can't Get Answer From IM Maryland or IM Headquarters [h2ofun]
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I can't say for sure but I am sure it's for the same reason. The width of a handcycle (cranked/pedaled with arms in a reclined, sitting, or kneeled position) is a bit wider than a standard road bike. Depending on the rider who the handcycle is made for, the width can be as much as much as 8-10" wider. Recumbents (pedaled with legs in a reclining position) are even wider by as much as 20" at their widest point.
It's all about real estate for Ironman. They feel multi-loop courses are to crowded which is why they like to direct handcycle athletes to Ironman Florida because of it single loop out and back course. The bike and run traffic is more spread out. It makes plenty of sense until they try to use safety as the reason. Tossing 2500 people into a lake within minutes of each other is dangerous and there is far more contact during the swin than there is on the bike course. A handcycle or two is not going to make any difference in 2500 bikes spread out over 38 miles Ironman Arizona or 50 miles (approximately) Ironman Maryland. Ironman Boulder is a multi-loop course and is handcycle approved. A woman from Nebraska was tragically killed on the bike course during Ironman Boulder this year and as fas as I know there were no handcycles even at the race much less involved.
It's all about real estate for Ironman. They feel multi-loop courses are to crowded which is why they like to direct handcycle athletes to Ironman Florida because of it single loop out and back course. The bike and run traffic is more spread out. It makes plenty of sense until they try to use safety as the reason. Tossing 2500 people into a lake within minutes of each other is dangerous and there is far more contact during the swin than there is on the bike course. A handcycle or two is not going to make any difference in 2500 bikes spread out over 38 miles Ironman Arizona or 50 miles (approximately) Ironman Maryland. Ironman Boulder is a multi-loop course and is handcycle approved. A woman from Nebraska was tragically killed on the bike course during Ironman Boulder this year and as fas as I know there were no handcycles even at the race much less involved.
Re: Wounded Vet Wheelchair Racer Can't Get Answer From IM Maryland or IM Headquarters [Rappstar]
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Still being denied and haven't heard anything for a couple of days now. Could certainly use some help given that I do not have the resources to take them on by myself.
Re: Wounded Vet Wheelchair Racer Can't Get Answer From IM Maryland or IM Headquarters [swimcrankpush]
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Thank you. You are exactly right, I have never received such resistance and don't require as much assistance from them as they think. There are more Ironman bike courses that are far more crowded than Arizona. Many courses they only cone off the shoulder and that is only a few feet in some places.
Re: Wounded Vet Wheelchair Racer Can't Get Answer From IM Maryland or IM Headquarters [a10co91]
[ In reply to ]
a10co91 wrote:
I can't say for sure but I am sure it's for the same reason. The width of a handcycle (cranked/pedaled with arms in a reclined, sitting, or kneeled position) is a bit wider than a standard road bike. Depending on the rider who the handcycle is made for, the width can be as much as much as 8-10" wider. Recumbents (pedaled with legs in a reclining position) are even wider by as much as 20" at their widest point. It's all about real estate for Ironman. They feel multi-loop courses are to crowded which is why they like to direct handcycle athletes to Ironman Florida because of it single loop out and back course. The bike and run traffic is more spread out. It makes plenty of sense until they try to use safety as the reason. Tossing 2500 people into a lake within minutes of each other is dangerous and there is far more contact during the swin than there is on the bike course. A handcycle or two is not going to make any difference in 2500 bikes spread out over 38 miles Ironman Arizona or 50 miles (approximately) Ironman Maryland. Ironman Boulder is a multi-loop course and is handcycle approved. A woman from Nebraska was tragically killed on the bike course during Ironman Boulder this year and as fas as I know there were no handcycles even at the race much less involved.
Re: Wounded Vet Wheelchair Racer Can't Get Answer From IM Maryland or IM Headquarters [spudone]
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If you can run a standard road bike on it then it can most likely be handcycled. I know there are certain course that may not be handcycle friendly. I know that Arizona is not one of those because I scouted the entire course and handcycle athletes have raced there. The only change that has been made to the course is the run has gone from three loops to two. This according to Ironman's reasoning should alleviate some of the overcrowding and make it safer for everyone including handcycle athletes.
Re: Wounded Vet Wheelchair Racer Can't Get Answer From IM Maryland or IM Headquarters [Macho Grande]
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Macho Grande wrote:
You do relief your argument about accessibility makes ZERO sense, right? Starbucks and Walmart are shopping establishments that must comply with the ADA and provide accommodation for those with disabilities. This would apply to anyone shopping at their stores, as well as shopping there. It would also apply to those who work for Ironman.
However, with regards to racers Ironman is allowed, in the interest of racer safety and welfare, to restrict who may enter their races if there is need for non-conventional triathlon equipment.
How does my point make zero sense. Walmart, Starbucks, Ironman all have customers who come and use their "facility" for the day. They also have employees who use the same venue. All para athletes are using conventional ITU certified equipment. It might be different from your TT bike, but its their TT machine that is authorized for use in our sport.
An able bodies customer in Starbucks could trip over another customer in Starbucks who happens to use a wheelchair. Is this a good enough reason to restrict people with wheelchairs from being customers at Starbucks just because some able bodies people are too uncoordinated to watch where they are going?
One of the biggest challenges that disabled people in general have had is this type of circular debate that they have to be kept out because they are inconveniencing able bodied people. That's like keeping any other group of people out of wherever because some people might be inconvenienced by their presence.
I think WTC can do better in that they are seen (out of their own making) as the gold standard in our sport and the premium brand. So they will shoulder the burden and scrutiny of these higher order societal issues.
Re: Wounded Vet Wheelchair Racer Can't Get Answer From IM Maryland or IM Headquarters [devashish_paul]
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Dev:
Man, you know, here I thought you were actually open to a discussion on this topic....You'r talking about normal, reasonable accommodations in day to day life where the possibility of danger or harm is quite low. Normal accommodations for the disabled are protected and required under the ADA.
In this case a private organization with its own set of rules is not allowing disabled athletes to compete and that's their choice. If people want to get all ass chapped about it, fine, but there is no moral, legal, or ethics obligation on the part of Ironman here, merely a business one.
Man, you know, here I thought you were actually open to a discussion on this topic....You'r talking about normal, reasonable accommodations in day to day life where the possibility of danger or harm is quite low. Normal accommodations for the disabled are protected and required under the ADA.
In this case a private organization with its own set of rules is not allowing disabled athletes to compete and that's their choice. If people want to get all ass chapped about it, fine, but there is no moral, legal, or ethics obligation on the part of Ironman here, merely a business one.
Re: Wounded Vet Wheelchair Racer Can't Get Answer From IM Maryland or IM Headquarters [Macho Grande]
[ In reply to ]
Macho Grande wrote:
Dev: Man, you know, here I thought you were actually open to a discussion on this topic....You'r talking about normal, reasonable accommodations in day to day life where the possibility of danger or harm is quite low. Normal accommodations for the disabled are protected and required under the ADA.
In this case a private organization with its own set of rules is not allowing disabled athletes to compete and that's their choice. If people want to get all ass chapped about it, fine, but there is no moral, legal, or ethics obligation on the part of Ironman here, merely a business one.
This is generally the mindset that has held back disabled folks from being able to access many of the aspects of life that us able bodied people take for granted.
I'm probably not the only one holding Ironman to a slightly higher moral obligation standard on this one.
To me, customers bumping into each other in starbucks and hurting themselves with hot coffee or customers bumping into each other on a bike course and hurting themselves with impact are, to some degree, functionally the same thing (in both cases people are getting hurt). And I am not sold that there is no legal nor ethical obligation. But I am not verses in Arizona nor Maryland nor Colorado law and would rather that it gets solved in a positive direction in favor of our peer athletes who need accessibility without having the law invoked at any level.
Re: Wounded Vet Wheelchair Racer Can't Get Answer From IM Maryland or IM Headquarters [devashish_paul]
[ In reply to ]
Ironman is a for profit company just like Wal-mart and Starbucks. Ironman holds events that are open to the public and held on public roads and trails paid for by the tax dollars of those living in and around the communities, as well as, the athletes and their families while visiting the area for the events. Ironman certainly had no problem with my wheelchair when I was sitting in the freezing rain volunteering at the 2015 race. As irony would have it I was at bike aid station #1. I was never told I couldn't volunteer because I was a safety hazard or I would make the course to crowded.
Ironman DOES let athletes with disabilities compete, just not handcycle athletes. Apparently we are to disabled and require to just a little more room on a course already crowded with 2500 other athletes. Every other disability is welcome at Ironman Arizona and all other Ironman courses around the world. Ironman Florida is a two loop swim course with a beach run across the sand between loops. That is about as wheelchair unfriendly as a course can get, yet Ironman lists it as a handcycle friendly course. I can only guess that they allow handlers to carry a handcycle athlete across the sand to the waters edge for their second loop. That would be what I call them accommodating a handcycle athlete. Why they will not do this other races is beyond me but that is why I am emailing and calling anyone I can think of to try to change their minds.
Ironman DOES let athletes with disabilities compete, just not handcycle athletes. Apparently we are to disabled and require to just a little more room on a course already crowded with 2500 other athletes. Every other disability is welcome at Ironman Arizona and all other Ironman courses around the world. Ironman Florida is a two loop swim course with a beach run across the sand between loops. That is about as wheelchair unfriendly as a course can get, yet Ironman lists it as a handcycle friendly course. I can only guess that they allow handlers to carry a handcycle athlete across the sand to the waters edge for their second loop. That would be what I call them accommodating a handcycle athlete. Why they will not do this other races is beyond me but that is why I am emailing and calling anyone I can think of to try to change their minds.
Re: Wounded Vet Wheelchair Racer Can't Get Answer From IM Maryland or IM Headquarters [a10co91]
[ In reply to ]
I'm sure IM could give you many reasons why they don't want to accommodate you and they may even be able to legally defend themselves. Doesn't make it right in my opinion though. This just doesn't feel right and I'm surprised and disappointed that they haven't engaged and addressed this yet. Hang in there.
Re: Wounded Vet Wheelchair Racer Can't Get Answer From IM Maryland or IM Headquarters [SemperUbiSubUbi]
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Thank you
Re: Wounded Vet Wheelchair Racer Can't Get Answer From IM Maryland or IM Headquarters [a10co91]
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I'm on this. We'll get these two men sorted.
"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
Re: Wounded Vet Wheelchair Racer Can't Get Answer From IM Maryland or IM Headquarters [Rappstar]
[ In reply to ]
Hey guys. Sorry I've been out of touch lately. Things have been busy. I was able to have phone conversation with some IM leadership. No positive news to report from the call, but this issue is definitely getting their attention. They'll either choose to make meaningful progress or they'll choose to keep weathering the negative publicity - which won't be stopping. That said, I'm in the process of putting together an advisory panel that can assist IM in making their races more inclusive. I'd prefer to be a friend of IM rather than a foe. We'll see what path they choose to take.
Re: Wounded Vet Wheelchair Racer Can't Get Answer From IM Maryland or IM Headquarters [devashish_paul]
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Re: Wounded Vet Wheelchair Racer Can't Get Answer From IM Maryland or IM Headquarters [Dan.B.]
[ In reply to ]
Dan.B. wrote:
Hey guys. Sorry I've been out of touch lately. Things have been busy. I was able to have phone conversation with some IM leadership. No positive news to report from the call, but this issue is definitely getting their attention. They'll either choose to make meaningful progress or they'll choose to keep weathering the negative publicity - which won't be stopping. That said, I'm in the process of putting together an advisory panel that can assist IM in making their races more inclusive. I'd prefer to be a friend of IM rather than a foe. We'll see what path they choose to take.Nice work putting together that advisory panel. It's pretty hard for able bodied organizers to really get the full scope of the challenges without a dialogue what what small changes are needed.