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Latex tube explosion!
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So, I get my new to me set of zipp firecrest clinchers this week. Stoked about my new setup- latex tubes and I filled them with Stan's sealant (2 oz per tube). I had some Bontrager TT tires laying around and I figured I would mount them up. I posted earlier this week about this tire and apparently it had good reviews on being fast.

So, my bike is laying next to the car as I am getting my kids stuff ready for the kids triathlon today in door county. All of a sudden- BOOM! My rear wheel just explodes. WTF! Luckily not tomorrow during the race.

Anyway, I can't imagine I mounted the tire or tube wrong. I always massage the tube I to the tire before inflating as well.

Bad luck? Any comments?
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Re: Latex tube explosion! [jharris] [ In reply to ]
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jharris wrote:
So, I get my new to me set of zipp firecrest clinchers this week. Stoked about my new setup- latex tubes and I filled them with Stan's sealant (2 oz per tube). I had some Bontrager TT tires laying around and I figured I would mount them up. I posted earlier this week about this tire and apparently it had good reviews on being fast.

So, my bike is laying next to the car as I am getting my kids stuff ready for the kids triathlon today in door county. All of a sudden- BOOM! My rear wheel just explodes. WTF! Luckily not tomorrow during the race.

Anyway, I can't imagine I mounted the tire or tube wrong. I always massage the tube I to the tire before inflating as well.

Bad luck? Any comments?

Did you very carefully inspect the entire bead to rim interface once you had a couple of psi in the tubes? If there is the tiniest bit of latex tube under the bead it will cause the type explosion you experienced. Butyl tubes are more likely to pop back into the tire under the bead when inflated but latex ones are so sticky as well as stretchy that the least bit under the bead will find a way out with loud consequences,

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Latex tube explosion! [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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sciguy wrote:
jharris wrote:
So, I get my new to me set of zipp firecrest clinchers this week. Stoked about my new setup- latex tubes and I filled them with Stan's sealant (2 oz per tube). I had some Bontrager TT tires laying around and I figured I would mount them up. I posted earlier this week about this tire and apparently it had good reviews on being fast.

So, my bike is laying next to the car as I am getting my kids stuff ready for the kids triathlon today in door county. All of a sudden- BOOM! My rear wheel just explodes. WTF! Luckily not tomorrow during the race.

Anyway, I can't imagine I mounted the tire or tube wrong. I always massage the tube I to the tire before inflating as well.

Bad luck? Any comments?

Did you very carefully inspect the entire bead to rim interface once you had a couple of psi in the tubes? If there is the tiniest bit of latex tube under the bead it will cause the type explosion you experienced. Butyl tubes are more likely to pop back into the tire under the bead when inflated but latex ones are so sticky as well as stretchy that the least bit under the bead will find a way out with loud consequences,

Hugh

Let's just say- I thought I did! I first went around the entire tire and squeezed the tire making sure the tube was in the tire and it didn't get between the tire and bead. I also checked the bead to make sure it was mounted properly, especially with the "aero wing" on this tire, I wanted the head to be seated well.

It all appeared fine!
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Re: Latex tube explosion! [jharris] [ In reply to ]
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Look at where it ruptured. Likely a bead issue or rimstrip issue.

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)
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Re: Latex tube explosion! [jharris] [ In reply to ]
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jharris wrote:
Bad luck? Any comments?

I hope it isn't bad luck.

I've used latex tubes exclusively for the last 7-8 years, so about 50k miles. I had two "explode" a few years back on Stan's 340 rims.. hundreds of miles after mounting and just riding along. Thank gawd not descending! I finally settled on the fault there being a lack of proper bead hook on the rim, relying on tire bead tension to keep the tire on. I quit using those rims.

Zero other issues. Just need to mount them carefully.

BTW, the tube won't explode unless the "container" (tire and rimstrip) opens up. When that happens, the wimpy rubber tube will make a loud noise when it suddenly experiences a 100 psi pressure differential.
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Re: Latex tube explosion! [jharris] [ In reply to ]
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jharris wrote:
sciguy wrote:
jharris wrote:
So, I get my new to me set of zipp firecrest clinchers this week. Stoked about my new setup- latex tubes and I filled them with Stan's sealant (2 oz per tube). I had some Bontrager TT tires laying around and I figured I would mount them up. I posted earlier this week about this tire and apparently it had good reviews on being fast.

So, my bike is laying next to the car as I am getting my kids stuff ready for the kids triathlon today in door county. All of a sudden- BOOM! My rear wheel just explodes. WTF! Luckily not tomorrow during the race.

Anyway, I can't imagine I mounted the tire or tube wrong. I always massage the tube I to the tire before inflating as well.

Bad luck? Any comments?


Did you very carefully inspect the entire bead to rim interface once you had a couple of psi in the tubes? If there is the tiniest bit of latex tube under the bead it will cause the type explosion you experienced. Butyl tubes are more likely to pop back into the tire under the bead when inflated but latex ones are so sticky as well as stretchy that the least bit under the bead will find a way out with loud consequences,

Hugh


Let's just say- I thought I did! I first went around the entire tire and squeezed the tire making sure the tube was in the tire and it didn't get between the tire and bead. I also checked the bead to make sure it was mounted properly, especially with the "aero wing" on this tire, I wanted the head to be seated well.

It all appeared fine!

While the squeezing action seems to usually get butyl tubes to sit in the correct position I don't think it works that well for stretchy latex tubes. A visual inspection is imperative as in "not the slightest bit of pink, green or whatever under the bead. If you're not looking at every centimeter of the circumference on both sides you're not checking sufficiently. One thing that really helps is to have the tube inflated so that it has a nice round cross section before beginning to install it. Not expanded but nice and round. I'm a fan of talc as it allows the latex to slide into the tire more easily. If it's sticky humid where you are this really helps,

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Latex tube explosion! [jharris] [ In reply to ]
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jharris wrote:
I first went around the entire tire and squeezed the tire making sure the tube was in the tire and it didn't get between the tire and bead. I also checked the bead to make sure it was mounted properly, especially with the "aero wing" on this tire, I wanted the head to be seated well.

FYI, I talc the inside of the tire and the tube thoroughly before I start.
Put just enough air in for the tube to take shape.
Place first tire bead on rim.
Insert tube valve in hole.
Eyeball and insert tube opposite valve (splitting "excess" in two), and insert tube inside tire.
Check to make sure the tube is completely inside the tire, and not folded or wrinkled.
Install other tire bead.
Check around beads for any visible tube.
Pull or push valve down tight against rim.
Inflate.
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Re: Latex tube explosion! [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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sciguy wrote:
While the squeezing action seems to usually get butyl tubes to sit in the correct position I don't think it works that well for stretchy latex tubes. A visual inspection is imperative as in "not the slightest bit of pink, green or whatever under the bead.

Although it is very good to check, I've never found any tube sticking out. Not once. Hundreds of installs (I did a bunch of Crr roller tests, plus 50k miles riding with latex). I'm convinced that if you experience "tube sticking out" there is probably something lacking in your procedure that should be addressed.
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Re: Latex tube explosion! [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
sciguy wrote:
While the squeezing action seems to usually get butyl tubes to sit in the correct position I don't think it works that well for stretchy latex tubes. A visual inspection is imperative as in "not the slightest bit of pink, green or whatever under the bead.


Although it is very good to check, I've never found any tube sticking out. Not once. Hundreds of installs (I did a bunch of Crr roller tests, plus 50k miles riding with latex). I'm convinced that if you experience "tube sticking out" there is probably something lacking in your procedure that should be addressed.

Agreed......typically too little air to hold circular cross section.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Latex tube explosion! [jharris] [ In reply to ]
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You either have a gash in a tire (which would be easy to find) and the tube herniated out of it. Or the tube was pinched under the bead and exploded there.
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Re: Latex tube explosion! [jharris] [ In reply to ]
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I just had this happen with a butyl tube. I chalk it up to installation error instead of the tube itself.

I have also used Bontrager 19mm AW tires with latex tubes in the past without much issues. Just keep in mind that installing latex tubes requires some combination of luck and skill. The more you do it, the less 'luck' matters.
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Re: Latex tube explosion! [jharris] [ In reply to ]
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Even after installing the tube carefully I first inflate to maybe 2-3 bar, spin the wheel and hold it up to see if the tire is uniformly round, no wobble. If the tube is not completely in the tire correctly, it usually shows a wobble then.
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Re: Latex tube explosion! [jharris] [ In reply to ]
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Did you check the rim itself really, really carefully? Maybe you bought someone else's problem....
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Re: Latex tube explosion! [jharris] [ In reply to ]
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Besides looking for seating issue, also inspect your tire very, very carefully for cuts. I had a latex tube explode once due to a minuscule cut that allowed the tube to peek out. It held 80-90 psi just fine, but when I pumped it up to 100 on race day, 15 minutes later, BANG! The unfortunate part was that I assumed I hadn't seated it right, so I threw in another tube and had the same thing happen again. BANG! My dog who was trying to sleep at the time never forgave me.

Oh, and not to be too pedantic, but in these cases doesn't the tube implode rather than explode? ; ^>
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Re: Latex tube explosion! [jharris] [ In reply to ]
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Watch our video on installing latex tubes in my signature below..it has some good hints and tricks... other than that, I will say that the Bontrager wing tires can be tricky to get seated properly..those wings really need to be positioned just perfectly when you begin to build pressure. I would recommend a 2-3psi check, then go to 15 psi or so and check again...then maybe check again at 50 or 60psi before going all the way.

Latex is tricky at first, but completely rewarding once you get there.
Best
Josh

http://www.SILCA.cc
Check out my podcast, inside stories from more than 20 years of product and tech innovation from inside the Pro Peloton and Pro Triathlon worlds!
http://www.marginalgainspodcast.cc
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Re: Latex tube explosion! [jharris] [ In reply to ]
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That's the sign of a partly pinched latex. It would have done the same in the first 60 seconds on the bike. Gotta triple check the tire bead to make sure there is no pinched latex.
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Re: Latex tube explosion! [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]
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First off- I didn't have an extra latex tube with me, so I switched both tubes to butyl tubes and I out on a new set of Bontrager aero wing TT tires. No issues- I got through the race and the bike rode well.

I was thinking about this issue again with the latex. I may have left out something important. Since the aero wing tires are hard to mount and get the bead right, I used soapy water on the bead when I mounted the tire. I figured, that's how tubeless tires are mounted and it works well for those tires. I was thinking, maybe the bead broke because the bead was slippery? Thoughts?





joshatsilca wrote:
Watch our video on installing latex tubes in my signature below..it has some good hints and tricks... other than that, I will say that the Bontrager wing tires can be tricky to get seated properly..those wings really need to be positioned just perfectly when you begin to build pressure. I would recommend a 2-3psi check, then go to 15 psi or so and check again...then maybe check again at 50 or 60psi before going all the way.

Latex is tricky at first, but completely rewarding once you get there.
Best
Josh
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Re: Latex tube explosion! [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]
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joshatsilca wrote:
Watch our video on installing latex tubes in my signature below..it has some good hints and tricks... other than that, I will say that the Bontrager wing tires can be tricky to get seated properly..those wings really need to be positioned just perfectly when you begin to build pressure. I would recommend a 2-3psi check, then go to 15 psi or so and check again...then maybe check again at 50 or 60psi before going all the way.

Latex is tricky at first, but completely rewarding once you get there.
Best
Josh

Hi Josh,
Today, I used Stan's rim tape, 25mm on my 650 Zipp 404's for my latex tubes. I had previously used 23mm rim tape which works better. Do I have to worry about the rim tape edge where it ends "cutting" into the tube?
Thank you!
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Re: Latex tube explosion! [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
jharris wrote:
I first went around the entire tire and squeezed the tire making sure the tube was in the tire and it didn't get between the tire and bead. I also checked the bead to make sure it was mounted properly, especially with the "aero wing" on this tire, I wanted the head to be seated well.


FYI, I talc the inside of the tire and the tube thoroughly before I start.
Put just enough air in for the tube to take shape.
Place first tire bead on rim.
Insert tube valve in hole.
Eyeball and insert tube opposite valve (splitting "excess" in two), and insert tube inside tire.
Check to make sure the tube is completely inside the tire, and not folded or wrinkled.
Install other tire bead.
Check around beads for any visible tube.
Pull or push valve down tight against rim.
Inflate.

This!!! Talc it up! Good checklist....

Colorado Triathlon Company, CO2UT 2021, Crooked Gravel 2022, Steamboat Gravel 2022
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Re: Latex tube explosion! [jharris] [ In reply to ]
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jharris
I can't imagine the soapy water played a role here..I've seen lots of tire installed with bead lube, soapy water and all sorts of other stuff without issue....

The bead coming off really generally is a sign of pinch. If we say brake heat test a wheel to failure and the tube heat fails..it will often blow through the sidewall..if it's hot enough it can rip the bead off of the rim before it tears the bead off of the rim..that interface is strong and there pressure is making it stronger.

Talc is a good option, and will give you similar results to soapy water during tire install. If you watch the video, note the step of getting the tire into the tire well first, then install the second bead..this is huge, and if you need, you can brush some talc down there to help it out.

codygo,
hard to say on the too wide rim tape..it isn't something I've studied, but having seen too-wide rim tape installed before, it will roll inward and that definitely adds a layer of uncertainty to the system..maybe it's all good, but maybe there's an edge sticking up, or an imperfection which can point into the tube..sort of a roll of the dice IMO. These rim tapes are high stiffness and are cut from very wide films down to the width specification..so the edges are mostly consistent, but not entirely.
You're probably fine for butyl, but for latex, I'd go back and get the right width if for no other reason that getting good night sleep!

Best
Josh

http://www.SILCA.cc
Check out my podcast, inside stories from more than 20 years of product and tech innovation from inside the Pro Peloton and Pro Triathlon worlds!
http://www.marginalgainspodcast.cc
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