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Re: Swimming forums do exist, they should be used. [Erin C.] [ In reply to ]
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The thing people don't get about swim technique is that it is not enough to LOOK like a real swimmer stroke wise, you have to APPLY FORCE like a real swimmer. The proper stroke movement is part of applying force but it is not the only thing going on.

There are 3 parts to applying force in the water:

1. "feel for the water" or the innate ability to sense what is going on and how efficient you are and thus give yourself continuous feedback. That can be improved but that is really where the talent divide lies. Really good swimmers do this so naturally they don't realize they are doing it until well into their career when some coach explains to them why they are already fast in the course of trying to eek out another few tenths of second.

2. executing the proper movements and body position to maximize the force applied and maximize its efficient use. (Because of #1, for a naturally good swimmer, this just happens, or at least happens 95% without any coaching or instruction).

3. having the swim specific strength and flexibility to execute good technique at speed and over time. (Good swimmers do have a head start here too but by and large, this where the work comes in for all swimmers whatever the level).

How much of #1 you have naturally plays a huge role in how fast you improve and how fast you'll get because that feedback loop drives #2 and lets you work harder (#3) but whatever natural talent you start with, swim specific strength can be improved the more you swim. Both #'s 2 and 3 are directly improved by swimming more and swimming harder.

So, technique does matter a lot but the only way to learn technique and perfect it is to swim more ;-) Just moving your arm right does almost nothing by itself.
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Re: Swimming forums do exist, they should be used. [STP] [ In reply to ]
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STP wrote:
The thing people don't get about swim technique is that it is not enough to LOOK like a real swimmer stroke wise, you have to APPLY FORCE like a real swimmer.
I agree with this. IMO, fitness and feel are the most critical aspects here. There are lots of swimmers with technically good strokes but no speed and lots of swimmers who look like a mess (think Janet Evans) but are pretty friggen fast.

Feel is really, really tough to develop as an adult onset swimmer. As someone who started swimming competitively at age 6, I have good feel but it'as impossible to explain. Fitness is relatively easy to develop, but I've noticed lots of triathletes rarely put in the work in the pool that a serious racing swimmer will. Basically, swimming is just hard. Taking myself as an example, I put thousands of KMs over two-a-day training blocks, went to month long swimming camps every summer, completed many video sessions with experts etc into developing my swimming. This took a couple of decades. New swimmers can't expect to be good after a couple years of twice a week ~2KM sessions.

I will admit that as a former competitive swimmer, as an adult I enjoy privately lording my swimming prowess over adult onset swimmers. I got no respect in junior high for making the high school varsity, a fact that annoyed me to no end. I got little respect for being a high school all-American even though I worked my ass off for that goal. Basketball players and football players see swimmers as a bunch of weirdos, not "jocks". Now when I see formerly good athletes in non-swimming sports struggle in the pool as they try to get into tri, it's hard to prevent a "yeah, it's not so easy is it!" grin from creeping on to my face.
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Re: Swimming forums do exist, they should be used. [hiro11] [ In reply to ]
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hiro11 wrote:
STP wrote:
The thing people don't get about swim technique is that it is not enough to LOOK like a real swimmer stroke wise, you have to APPLY FORCE like a real swimmer.
I agree with this. IMO, fitness and feel are the most critical aspects here. There are lots of swimmers with technically good strokes but no speed and lots of swimmers who look like a mess (think Janet Evans) but are pretty friggen fast.

Feel is really, really tough to develop as an adult onset swimmer. As someone who started swimming competitively at age 6, I have good feel but it'as impossible to explain. Fitness is relatively easy to develop, but I've noticed lots of triathletes rarely put in the work in the pool that a serious racing swimmer will. Basically, swimming is just hard. Taking myself as an example, I put thousands of KMs over two-a-day training blocks, went to month long swimming camps every summer, completed many video sessions with experts etc into developing my swimming. This took a couple of decades. New swimmers can't expect to be good after a couple years of twice a week ~2KM sessions.

I will admit that as a former competitive swimmer, as an adult I enjoy privately lording my swimming prowess over adult onset swimmers. I got no respect in junior high for making the high school varsity, a fact that annoyed me to no end. I got little respect for being a high school all-American even though I worked my ass off for that goal. Basketball players and football players see swimmers as a bunch of weirdos, not "jocks". Now when I see formerly good athletes in non-swimming sports struggle in the pool as they try to get into tri, it's hard to prevent a "yeah, it's not so easy is it!" grin from creeping on to my face.


A couple of friends of mine swam for a small D3 school with a good swimming program and the football players were razzing them about "how easy" swimming is. So, they invited the whole football team to come to a swim practice one fall afternoon. Not a single footballer was able to even finish the warm-up, let alone the whole practice. No more razzing after that. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Swimming forums do exist, they should be used. [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
A couple of friends of mine swam for a small D3 school with a good swimming program and the football players were razzing them about "how easy" swimming is. So, they invited the whole football team to come to a swim practice one fall afternoon. Not a single footballer was able to even finish the warm-up, let alone the whole practice. No more razzing after that. :)

Relevant Article:
http://deadspin.com/...-michael-phelps-does

"NFL training camp is back underway, and all of your favorite players are being reminded once again: Football practice sucks. That's well documented. The pain. The violence. The hot sun. But you know what sucks worse? Swim practice."
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Re: Swimming forums do exist, they should be used. [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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chaparral wrote:
ericmulk wrote:

A couple of friends of mine swam for a small D3 school with a good swimming program and the football players were razzing them about "how easy" swimming is. So, they invited the whole football team to come to a swim practice one fall afternoon. Not a single footballer was able to even finish the warm-up, let alone the whole practice. No more razzing after that. :)


Relevant Article:
http://deadspin.com/...-michael-phelps-does

"NFL training camp is back underway, and all of your favorite players are being reminded once again: Football practice sucks. That's well documented. The pain. The violence. The hot sun. But you know what sucks worse? Swim practice."

Thanks for that Chap; I remember reading it back in 2012 but I had completely forgotten about it. Great story!!! :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Swimming forums do exist, they should be used. [Cyz] [ In reply to ]
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Dan posted a thread about goggles for your reading pleasure.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Swimming forums do exist, they should be used. [Cyz] [ In reply to ]
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I couldn't stand it any more.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




As a former DI distance swimmer, swimming has done a ton for me. But seriously, this is a triathlon forum.

There are swimming forums on the world wide web. Yes, yes it's true. A quick google search yielded a litany of results for "swimming forums". I know I know, it's crazy.

Now it is also true that triathlon does have a swimming element to it, and that some here would be interested in learning about swimming, get swimming tips, etc. But if you wanted to know more about Trials why wouldn't you go to a SWIMMING FORUM.

It seems like many triathletes are not awesome swimmers, and the swim is simply an avenue to the bike or run. It's a mild inconvenience for many. I'm assuming 90% of triathletes care about swimming trials as much as I care about the NBA playoffs, last second of the last game of the season, sure I'll watch (but I'm switching the channel immediately after it's over). Further, if you're looking for swimming tips and tricks, or coaching advice, wouldn't a better place to go be a swimming forum? This would be place where people who are good at swimming post, write articles, etc.

Nothing against slowtwitch at all, but if you want to be a better swimmer go to where the real swimmers are. If you want to be a better biker, go to a cycling forum, etc. Same in the real world. Join a masters group, ride w/ a group and I'm not super sure what you do about running. If you want to continue to simmer in a stew of swimming mediocrity hang out w/ triathletes (kidding, sort of). But really, can't we focus a bit more on Jesse Thomas, and the awesome things he's doing, Andy Potts, Ben Hoffman, Keinle, Frodeno, Carfrae...etc etc? I've never seen anyone one a swimming forum post about Olympic Triathletes.

Anyway, there's my $.02, now feel free to tell me how wrong I am. I'm going to go get started readying a bunch of posts for the TDF.

Out.
Last edited by: davetallo: Jul 4, 16 20:16
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Re: Swimming forums do exist, they should be used. [davetallo] [ In reply to ]
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I preferred the incomprehensible rant.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Swimming forums do exist, they should be used. [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Really wish you guys wouldn't post such great stuff in this forum. I like posts that I can just scan over and go about my day.
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Re: Swimming forums do exist, they should be used. [TriathlonJoe] [ In reply to ]
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Desertfox is so bothered by the lack of triathlon content that he hasn't logged in since Jun 29th...

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Swimming forums do exist, they should be used. [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
Desertfox is so bothered by the lack of triathlon content that he hasn't logged in since Jun 29th...

We's working with Lochte on his breast stroke leg for the 400 IM! Too busy with that.
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Re: Swimming forums do exist, they should be used. [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
hiro11 wrote:
STP wrote:
The thing people don't get about swim technique is that it is not enough to LOOK like a real swimmer stroke wise, you have to APPLY FORCE like a real swimmer.
I agree with this. IMO, fitness and feel are the most critical aspects here. There are lots of swimmers with technically good strokes but no speed and lots of swimmers who look like a mess (think Janet Evans) but are pretty friggen fast.

Feel is really, really tough to develop as an adult onset swimmer. As someone who started swimming competitively at age 6, I have good feel but it'as impossible to explain. Fitness is relatively easy to develop, but I've noticed lots of triathletes rarely put in the work in the pool that a serious racing swimmer will. Basically, swimming is just hard. Taking myself as an example, I put thousands of KMs over two-a-day training blocks, went to month long swimming camps every summer, completed many video sessions with experts etc into developing my swimming. This took a couple of decades. New swimmers can't expect to be good after a couple years of twice a week ~2KM sessions.

I will admit that as a former competitive swimmer, as an adult I enjoy privately lording my swimming prowess over adult onset swimmers. I got no respect in junior high for making the high school varsity, a fact that annoyed me to no end. I got little respect for being a high school all-American even though I worked my ass off for that goal. Basketball players and football players see swimmers as a bunch of weirdos, not "jocks". Now when I see formerly good athletes in non-swimming sports struggle in the pool as they try to get into tri, it's hard to prevent a "yeah, it's not so easy is it!" grin from creeping on to my face.


A couple of friends of mine swam for a small D3 school with a good swimming program and the football players were razzing them about "how easy" swimming is. So, they invited the whole football team to come to a swim practice one fall afternoon. Not a single footballer was able to even finish the warm-up, let alone the whole practice. No more razzing after that. :)

We did this in high school with the wrestlers that made fun of us for shaving our legs.
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Re: Swimming forums do exist, they should be used. [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
davros wrote:
lightheir wrote:
mhepp wrote:
Are there differences? Sure.

Is that the MAIN difference between a D1 swimmer and average joe lap swimmer? No.

It may be a small one, but that was the point I was arguing. Carry on


Actually, it IS the main difference.

The average joe swimmer doesn't have the desire or ability to even take on that kind of commitment to swimming. Largely because it's pretty clear they won't be that great at it.

But even if you force them to bust their tail and do all those workouts, they won't even be close to a D1 swimmer.

This is more clear in running, where you can't just blame technique on someone's lack of speed. There are plenty of 16-18 year olds who run 15:xx 5ks on under 30mpw of training, and often have been running for less than a few years. Yet there are MILLIONS of kids, who do the same or more training, and can't even break 20 (or even 22).

It's not going to be the same exact ability curve, but you're fooling yourself to think that swimming doesn't have such a differential between the talented and nontalented. For sure, you're not going to have joe-average swimmer pulling within 5sec/100 of the gifted D1-swimmer by doing equal training. In fact, it'll likely be a 20sec/100 or more gap at all speeds in the pool.


I'm with lightheir. Take a group of people and give them identical training, the results will vary enormously. This is especially clear when you watch novice programs.

Most athletes don't see this because the people they train with have already been filtered and left with those of roughly similar talent. So the big differences they see between them and their peers every day are much more due to training. Its really easy to forget the other 99% of the population who could never run a 20min 5k no matter how much training they did.


+1000

+180... which is approximately the # of kids on my kids' swim team, which amounts to a giant longitudinal study wherein you get to observe a large n of subjects under somewhat controlled conditions (i.e., in general they're all following the same coaching program, using the same facilities, same meet sched, etc) over the span of roughly 8 years old until college; and not only that, you even get to compare sets of siblings, AND get to know some of the parents, too. The apples just don't fall far from the tree. Anyone who thinks training trumps natural talent is too invested in their own story to see all the rest of the cases in context.

Sure, you gotta put the work in to be elite, but I've seen plenty of kids who joined the team relatively late (middle school) and who became one of the fastest kids within a single season even when their stroke mechanics still looked pretty raw; they were just clearly much more athletic from Day 1 and quickly caught up to and surpassed a lot of kids who'd been at it for years. And oh, by the way, in the latest example I came to find out later both parents happened to be D1 scholarship athletes (in other sports). Again, same workouts, same coaching; vastly greater returns in a much shorter time for some than most. Or, the girls who started at an early age and trained their way into the top groups up until around the first year or 2 of HS, and then started to get slower and heavier despite continuing with all the training that had gotten them to where they were ~ just can't put off inheriting mom's huge ass for too long after puberty; that shit is hard wired.

I even knew a kid who got a D-1 scholarship w/ amazingly mediocre times in HS (not even state champ in a small state) based purely on the fact his brother had already become an NCAA champ so the coaches figured the raw material was in there somewhere and he just hadn't put in the work yet (which was totally true since he was much more of a jack-off earlier). By the time he finished, he made the top of an NCAA podium too. So again, yeah you won't reach the top level without putting in the work, but no amount of training will make you elite if you weren't born with the potential already.


"They've done studies, ya know... 60% of the time, it works EVERY time."
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Re: Swimming forums do exist, they should be used. [OneGoodLeg] [ In reply to ]
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OneGoodLeg wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
davros wrote:
lightheir wrote:
mhepp wrote:
Are there differences? Sure.

Is that the MAIN difference between a D1 swimmer and average joe lap swimmer? No.

It may be a small one, but that was the point I was arguing. Carry on


Actually, it IS the main difference.

The average joe swimmer doesn't have the desire or ability to even take on that kind of commitment to swimming. Largely because it's pretty clear they won't be that great at it.

But even if you force them to bust their tail and do all those workouts, they won't even be close to a D1 swimmer.

This is more clear in running, where you can't just blame technique on someone's lack of speed. There are plenty of 16-18 year olds who run 15:xx 5ks on under 30mpw of training, and often have been running for less than a few years. Yet there are MILLIONS of kids, who do the same or more training, and can't even break 20 (or even 22).

It's not going to be the same exact ability curve, but you're fooling yourself to think that swimming doesn't have such a differential between the talented and nontalented. For sure, you're not going to have joe-average swimmer pulling within 5sec/100 of the gifted D1-swimmer by doing equal training. In fact, it'll likely be a 20sec/100 or more gap at all speeds in the pool.


I'm with lightheir. Take a group of people and give them identical training, the results will vary enormously. This is especially clear when you watch novice programs.

Most athletes don't see this because the people they train with have already been filtered and left with those of roughly similar talent. So the big differences they see between them and their peers every day are much more due to training. Its really easy to forget the other 99% of the population who could never run a 20min 5k no matter how much training they did.


+1000


+180... which is approximately the # of kids on my kids' swim team, which amounts to a giant longitudinal study wherein you get to observe a large n of subjects under somewhat controlled conditions (i.e., in general they're all following the same coaching program, using the same facilities, same meet sched, etc) over the span of roughly 8 years old until college; and not only that, you even get to compare sets of siblings, AND get to know some of the parents, too. The apples just don't fall far from the tree. Anyone who thinks training trumps natural talent is too invested in their own story to see all the rest of the cases in context.

Sure, you gotta put the work in to be elite, but I've seen plenty of kids who joined the team relatively late (middle school) and who became one of the fastest kids within a single season even when their stroke mechanics still looked pretty raw; they were just clearly much more athletic from Day 1 and quickly caught up to and surpassed a lot of kids who'd been at it for years. And oh, by the way, in the latest example I came to find out later both parents happened to be D1 scholarship athletes (in other sports). Again, same workouts, same coaching; vastly greater returns in a much shorter time for some than most. Or, the girls who started at an early age and trained their way into the top groups up until around the first year or 2 of HS, and then started to get slower and heavier despite continuing with all the training that had gotten them to where they were ~ just can't put off inheriting mom's huge ass for too long after puberty; that shit is hard wired.

I even knew a kid who got a D-1 scholarship w/ amazingly mediocre times in HS (not even state champ in a small state) based purely on the fact his brother had already become an NCAA champ so the coaches figured the raw material was in there somewhere and he just hadn't put in the work yet (which was totally true since he was much more of a jack-off earlier). By the time he finished, he made the top of an NCAA podium too. So again, yeah you won't reach the top level without putting in the work, but no amount of training will make you elite if you weren't born with the potential already.

This reminds me of the Rowdy Gaines story, which I would not believe myself except that I've had numerous former Auburn swimmers verify it. Gaines learned to swim as a young kid but did not swim on a team until he was 17 yet, after only a year of so of training, he was fast enough to be offered a scholarship to Auburn. He then proceeded to win 5 NCAA D1 titles, set 10 WRs, win 3 Oly gold medals, and become the voice of Oly TV coverage. So, you do not have to start swimming competitively at age 7, if you've got the right genes. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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