If the Protestants and Catholics were in the 1970s or 1980s both distributing leaflets and giving street corner speeches around the world advocating for a world government that serves Jesus, led by Priest/Pastor X, and asking followers to commit terrorist acts in their own countries, then we most certainly would say "the guy was motivated by Christianity." Now if most Christians were opposed to this we might say "radical Christianity."

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

I'm not sure you actually understand the difference between Shia and Sunni, even among the radicals. The two sects are not only significantly different in how they worship and view Islam (for instance Sunni extremists don't even consider Shia to be Muslim), but their goals and aims are different as well. Typically, Shia extremists are not calling for a world govt that serves Islam, led by Imam X, or asking followers to conduct acts of terrorism in their home countries. Shia extremists are typically focused on nationalist causes (Lebanon, Iran). Hezbollah is the prime example, and it include in its membership Muslims, Christians, and other minorities. Sunni groups frequently target Shi'ite groups. There is very little, if any, common message or goal between the two sides.

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Slowguy

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Pew Research on religion find 24% American Muslims self identify as just Muslim, neither Sunni or Shia. And that would not count those that might identify as one or other but not care which you are. I suspect American culture has lessened the derision between the two groups. In fact, I have seen many interviews when Muslims say they are glad to be away from the zealous behavior.

Given the lack of strong conviction in many American Muslims, is it that hard to believe they would be willing to support the anti-American sentiment of both groups?

I'm not sure you actually understand the difference between Shia and Sunni, even among the radicals. The two sects are not only significantly different in how they worship and view Islam (for instance Sunni extremists don't even consider Shia to be Muslim), but their goals and aims are different as well. Typically, Shia extremists are not calling for a world govt that serves Islam, led by Imam X, or asking followers to conduct acts of terrorism in their home countries. Shia extremists are typically focused on nationalist causes (Lebanon, Iran). Hezbollah is the prime example, and it include in its membership Muslims, Christians, and other minorities. Sunni groups frequently target Shi'ite groups. There is very little, if any, common message or goal between the two sides.[/quote]
He was an Uber Muslim..

Quote:

No, I mean they oppose each other. He pledged allegiance to a leader of ISIL, but also claimed to be a member of Hezbollah, which directly opposes ISIL and is fighting them. You can't really claim to support ISIL and al Qaeda (Sunni groups) and Hezbollah (Shia) and be considered to have any clue what you're talking about.

I think that you could do something on behalf of both groups as long as both groups might feel avenged by your actions or aggrieved by your foe. Now, I agree with you that if Omar Mateen had definitively started with ISIL or started with Hezbollah he most likely would not approach any terror act by crediting both groups. However, he was born, raised, and radicalized in the United States. He easily could have felt that the more Muslim groups he could call upon, the more his cause could be justified.

Sure, it's easy to believe. But Mateen specifically said he was part of Hezbollah, and also called for the US to stop bombing ISIL in Syria. Problem with that is that Hezbollah is fighting against ISIL in Syria. There's more conflict there than just two sides who are anti-American.

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Slowguy

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Your points are perfectly valid if you start with the assumption the guy was not a moron.

They do not pick suicide bombers because of their high IQ, these guys are usual dumb as rocks. He likely did not fully understand what he was saying and just wanted to become a hero to the Muslim world.

And at what point is a person stupid enough that we no longer credit him with having any actual rational motivation? If he's too dumb to understand the differences I'm talking about, he's maybe not smart enough to actually be motivated by Islam at all, but rather just by the nuts and bolts rattling around in his head. Reading his personal history, he has been violent, hateful, bullied, etc his entire life. At what point do we just conced that he really wasn't a Muslim terrorist in any way other than that he called himself that? I.e. He didn't do what he did because he thought Allah wanted him to, or because it was what Islam teaches, or because he wanted to be a part of ISIL, but because he was just a shitty, violent, angry, asshole who wanted to do something horrible, and was just looking for an excuse.

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Slowguy

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I don't know why you bother with news sources when all you need to do is read veganerd and slowguy. They're mind readers, you know?

Ironic post of the year. You guys are all saying you know, we are saying it seems less binary than youre making it out to be. We arent saying its one way or the other, just that the evidence saying it was purely religiously motivated is pretty shaky.

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

I'm saying that the LA Times says that the FBI says there's no evidence that the shooter was gay.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

It doesn't take mind reading to say we don't know. Try again douchebag.

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Slowguy

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Holy shit, Goobdog and I agree on something.

Before we make a final judgment there is more to come out and of course we can't 'know' but I don't think he was chosen by anyone other than himself. It seems like the first he affiliated himself with any group is when he called 911. He appears to have been fuckall stupid, a trait he apparently got from his father. But I would be surprised if he didn't find his motivations from sources across the spectrum. While the various extremist Muslim groups are not allied with each other they do share anti-American and anti-homosexual stances.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

See... There's hope for you yet!

Keep up the good work because agreeing with me is the easiest and best way to guarantee that you are 100% correct!