Social media is terrible, terrible substitute for the rule of law.

A bunch of people do know that gas and liquor are taxed. If a person doesn't know that, by and large they just shrug and pay it. Also, if all costs of a tax are passed on to a renter than the property tax isn't a burden to the owner. There are certainly indirect taxes passed on, but you don't really get to double count the taxes in that case.

Pass it on, pay it direct, doesn't matter. Current government spending is ~40% GDP. That means that on average people are paying ~40% in taxes. Some pay less, some pay more. The guy who passes on the property tax to the renter still has to live somewhere...where he pays the property tax. Point is that the renter doesn't realize he's paying the property tax just like most people have no idea how much tax they actually pay because the only tax they see they pay are what comes out of their check and what they pay in sales taxes. That's probably less then half what most people pay in taxes.

~Matt

People tend to like the bumper sticker platform of the Libertarian Party. The trouble starts when you dig into it and see the practical affects of it.


I think the real problem is when you start to look their hard-core members. Case in point, the Forge.

Yeah, one of Johnson/Weld's biggest problem might be the the #anyonebutjohnson faction of their own party.

Libertarians have an impossible purity test.

I'm with you all the way. I don't want to vote for either of the major candidates. Different reasons for each. I have no delusions that Johnson will win.

20% would be great, 25% would send a clear message, 30% would be a movement!

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''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! 😂 '' Murphy's Law

Are you serious? I was one of the more rational and pragmatic members of the party. I didn't pass the purity test. That is why some of us gave up and went to the Republican Liberty Caucus. We think we can get more results thorugh the republican party with people like Rand Paul.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

Look Forge, I love you. If I could get you to drink, you're the first person in this forum I'd want to have a drink with. But you're one crazy motherfucker.

And when I say, "I love you," I mean that in the most homoerotic way possible

Was it the Tyler durden comparisons in all ways? Haha.

I know I'm extreme and may be viewed as batshit crazy by most people And in telling you nearly half the party made me look sane.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

I think the real problem is when you start to look their hard-core members. Case in point, the Forge.

I agree. The Libertarian party has an odd image problem. I think they have to come with terms with the idea that just because you believe that everyone should have individual liberties does not mean that with in your own party you should allow anyone to do anything they like. Libertarian does not mean "No social pressure or no social norms" and that seems to be what their party is these days. Having a person giving a speech naked at the convention...really?!

~Matt

Let's dig just into the discrimination laws to keep the replies from being 87 pages.

What is the recourse?

Several.

1) Don't go to places where you need services that people don't want to give you. Take the "Gay cake" instance. Don't go to someone that won't provide you that service, find someone who will.
2) Unless the group is so tiny of a minority it is always possible for the minority group to provide services to their group.

I grew up in Ayersville, OH. A very small town in northwest Ohio. There was precisely one black family. There was also a single ice cream store and one gas station/convenience store. Defiance is 15 minutes away.

Let's say Ray Derricote was running out of gas. But the owner of the Ayersville Carry Out didn't like to serve African Americans. What does he do?

If my friend Chuck's little brother wanted ice cream but Dee & Gee's Dairy Bar didn't like selling ice cream to black kids, what does he do? He's 8, he can't ride his bike 10+ miles each way to get some.

Let's say there are 20 black families in Ayersville. Even if there was enough wealth in one of those groups to start their own, there still isn't enough people in the town to make 2 gas stations or dairy bars viable.

In the Libertarian Utopia, what is the expected result from this situation?

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

I would say Ray would plan to go to Defiance to get gas. Or if the gas station was a brand, call the corporate office and complain. For ice cream the kid would probably be sad. Also, parents arrested for letting a kid ride a bike alone.

Also, just a random note, I'm headed to Defiance/Jewell next week to visit family.

I don't think it's a substitute for the rule of law, but it helps enact social change without government involvement

Also, parents arrested for letting a kid ride a bike alone.

It was the 80's, we could do that sort of thing.

Also, just a random note, I'm headed to Defiance/Jewell next week to visit family.

I'm sorry.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

Let's say Ray Derricote was running out of gas. But the owner of the Ayersville Carry Out didn't like to serve African Americans. What does he do?

Probably the same thing he would do if Ayersville Carry Out didn't exist at all. Which of course is the point. No one has the right to force someone else to do with their property as THEY see fit. Ayersville Carry Out exists because the owner took the burden and risk to start it. If he did not...no one would be able to get gas there and everyone would have to figure out what to do if they couldn't get gas there.

If my friend Chuck's little brother wanted ice cream but Dee & Gee's Dairy Bar didn't like selling ice cream to black kids, what does he do? He's 8, he can't ride his bike 10+ miles each way to get some.

1) If you're his friend you would buy it for him.
2) If no in the entire town liked him then his parent could drive the 15 minutes to the next town and get it for him.
3) Make your own ice cream...it's really not that hard.
4) The rest of the town boycots Dee and Gee's for being racist forcing them to sell to black people or go out of business
5) Chucks family get's the hell out of such a shitty town.

Those are solutions off the top of my head. There are many more.

Let's say there are 20 black families in Ayersville. Even if there was enough wealth in one of those groups to start their own, there still isn't enough people in the town to make 2 gas stations or dairy bars viable.

In the Libertarian Utopia, what is the expected result from this situation?

See above. There are almost always solutions and other options. IF you want to make up some strange condition like "What if there was one black person in a thousand mile radius and everyone in that thousand mile radius hated black people"...well then everyone outside of that radius should get together and throw in for a moving van and get those people the hell out of there. "Oh but wait that one black person REALLY wants to live in the middle of a thousand mile radius where everyone hates them". Great, then they will have to figure out solutions to every problem they run into.

People seem to have tiny minds and can't seem to come up with relatively easy solutions for these problems. They stuck on "I want EXACTLY "X" and nothing else will do". So maybe you can't have ice cream from a particular store or a cake from a particular store, so what, there are many other ways to get cake and ice cream.

~Matt

Thankfully our society has decided the Libertarian ideal is not how we want to live. I find it informative that no advanced modern society in the world has chosen to live this way. I can think of no society in the history of societies that have chosen this path (if you know of one that comes closest I would welcome the info). There is a reason for that.

In fact I believe that implementing the Libertarian Party platform in full would quickly dissuade Libertarians of their support of the party.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.