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Re: Real World Yaw: what does it mean for triathletes? [Titanflexr] [ In reply to ]
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Titanflexr wrote:
To use these data, it seems like we need to take the ambient wind data measured on a "representative" course (people can debate which course it should be, but based on the data in the article there seems to be a low sensitivity....so go with Kona since everyone puts that on a pedestal).

With that wind data, you could take the known drag of different bikes/wheels at yaw, plug in a given rider wattage, and do a simulation run to see what the time savings is. The output will be different for a "pro" (300W) vs. a "solid AG" (200W) vs. a "bucket-lister" (150W). If you know your watts (or can backwork from you bike splits) you can see what setup works best.

The time at each yaw angle on the graphs is a bit deceptive since climbing at low speeds leads to higher yaws, but on a part of the course where aero gains are minimal.


I was thinking along similar lines, but was thinking you could have a "yaw distribution" inputs to Best Bike Split, not just a single CdA number.

But this would require some sort of standardized representation of such a profile. Which I don't think exists right now.
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Re: Real World Yaw: what does it mean for triathletes? [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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My pleasure!


Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling
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Re: Real World Yaw: what does it mean for triathletes? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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You definitely need the yaw distribution and your drag at that yaw to better estimate your total time.
This info from Nathan also makes it a lot more important that you get pacelining correct... if large amounts of time are less than 10 deg yaw, you can easily get a large slipstream benefit even at draft legal distance of 12 m.



Rob Raulings
My AeroCalc - http://aerocalc.triathlete.com.au/aerotools/ - Blog http://fishboy.triathlete.com.au
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Re: Real World Yaw: what does it mean for triathletes? [fishboy] [ In reply to ]
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Just add a n to yaw and that's how it makes me feel
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Re: Real World Yaw: what does it mean for triathletes? [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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Bored? LOL
In that case, you might need something like this:
http://tinyurl.com/2fcpre6

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
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Re: Real World Yaw: what does it mean for triathletes? [fishboy] [ In reply to ]
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Exactly. Even at legal distances, there is still a draft.

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
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Re: Real World Yaw: what does it mean for triathletes? [fishboy] [ In reply to ]
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fishboy wrote:
You definitely need the yaw distribution and your drag at that yaw to better estimate your total time.

This info from Nathan also makes it a lot more important that you get pacelining correct... if large amounts of time are less than 10 deg yaw, you can easily get a large slipstream benefit even at draft legal distance of 12 m.


Yup: A 10% - 13% reduction in apparent CdA when drafting at 12 metres in this (your) case:
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com.au/...2/pour-me-draft.html



http://www.cyclecoach.com
http://www.aerocoach.com.au
Last edited by: AlexS: Jun 24, 16 3:29
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Re: Real World Yaw: what does it mean for triathletes? [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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damon_rinard wrote:
Slowman wrote:
it seems to me, tho, that on windy courses, like kona, you still have 25 or 30 percent of the time spent in yaws greater than 10 degrees, yes?

Yep.


Adding from left to right: 1% + 19% (skip -10 to +10) + 5% + 5% = 30% of time at Kona spent outside 10 degrees yaw. (Where on the course does this happen? What are the conditions there? What about the other 70% of the time?)

Another poster also mentioned, a specific course may have a unique yaw distribution. As another example, there's a club in St. John's, Nova Scotia, whose weekly TT has consistently high winds, leading to consistently high yaw angles. It's out & back, so you get high positive and high negative yaw.

So if your A race has a predictable yaw distribution, you can select equipment that does well at those yaw angles.

On the other hand, if you race "everywhere," or if your A race has normally variable wind conditions, then your most commonly experienced yaw angles center towards the range in the article.

No comment on any of this stuff, except.... Where is St John's Nova Scotia?

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Re: Real World Yaw: what does it mean for triathletes? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
No comment on any of this stuff, except.... Where is St John's Nova Scotia?


My ignorance is revealed. :-( I meant St. John's Halifax.



Surrounded by the sea, you can imagine the winds there... I mean, you probably don't have to imagine them, but "one can imagine" the winds there.

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
Last edited by: damon_rinard: Jun 24, 16 5:26
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Re: Real World Yaw: what does it mean for triathletes? [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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damon_rinard wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
No comment on any of this stuff, except.... Where is St John's Nova Scotia?


My ignorance is revealed. :-( I meant St. John's Halifax.



Surrounded by the sea, you can imagine the winds there... I mean, you probably don't have to imagine them, but "one can imagine" the winds there.





That be Newfoundland, bie...

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Real World Yaw: what does it mean for triathletes? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Ooof, not only do I not know my Canadian geography, but apparently I can't even read a map.
I'd LOL but I'm sooo embarassed! LOL

Sorry for my mistake, and thanks for helping me understand. :-)

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
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Re: Real World Yaw: what does it mean for triathletes? [AlexS] [ In reply to ]
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AlexS wrote:
fishboy wrote:
You definitely need the yaw distribution and your drag at that yaw to better estimate your total time.

This info from Nathan also makes it a lot more important that you get pacelining correct... if large amounts of time are less than 10 deg yaw, you can easily get a large slipstream benefit even at draft legal distance of 12 m.


Yup: A 10% - 13% reduction in apparent CdA when drafting at 12 metres in this (your) case:
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com.au/...2/pour-me-draft.html


Yeah thanks Alex, couldn't find the link to that data analysis earlier on my phone.



Rob Raulings
My AeroCalc - http://aerocalc.triathlete.com.au/aerotools/ - Blog http://fishboy.triathlete.com.au
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Re: Real World Yaw: what does it mean for triathletes? [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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As it pertains to wheel design, could all of these findings STILL be flawed?

The instruments that are taking these physical measurements are placed above the wheel.

If wind speed is zero on the ground, actual yaw would have to be even less than what all of these studies measure/conclude?

Wouldn't yaw also vary across the vertical plane of a wheel at any given measurement?
Last edited by: martindale: Jun 24, 16 17:25
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Re: Real World Yaw: what does it mean for triathletes? [martindale] [ In reply to ]
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Also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_gradient

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
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Re: Real World Yaw: what does it mean for triathletes? [damon_rinard] [ In reply to ]
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The myth that it busts for me is "speed is an idea". Speed is the consequence of consecutive decisions for specific situations. To start is with exploring the situations and than making conclusions before setting the idea for simplification .. oSo >>

For me it's hard to imagine how to put more speed into the two wheels. The actual specifications of classic road bikes I love put them beyond my limits. Maybe some nano resins can shape inertia in the design.

Since triathletes fight more against the wind than with the time a drag adaptive construction could steal some seconds .. oSo >>

*
___/\___/\___/\___
the s u r f b o a r d of the K u r p f a l z is the r o a d b i k e .. oSo >>
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Re: Real World Yaw: what does it mean for triathletes? [sausskross] [ In reply to ]
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"Speed is the consequence of consecutive decisions for specific situations."

Beautifully said!

Damon Rinard
Engineering Manager,
CSG Road Engineering Department
Cannondale & GT Bicycles
(ex-Cervelo, ex-Trek, ex-Velomax, ex-Kestrel)
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