Thats bullshit.

Most people know exactly what national sovereignty means.

There is nothing abstract about it at all.

The abstract nature of a bunch of fuck wads in The EU dictating what happens with the UK as part of some failed economic frankenstein multi country cluster fuck is exactly why people can relate to taking back their country.

The EU will fail by default.

It never had a chance.

Multiculturalism, economic union, it's all fucking horseshit and people know it.

The EU serves thd elite, just look at the fucking mess the EU has created in the last decade.

It's a disaster and the elites still try and argue it makes sense.

They are crazy.

As Friedman correctly stated--it will never survive it's first crisis.

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"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

Thats bullshit.

Most people know exactly what national sovereignty means.

There is nothing abstract about it at all.

The abstract nature of a bunch of fuck wads in The EU dictating what happens with the UK as part of some failed economic frankenstein multi country cluster fuck is exactly why people can relate to taking back their country.

The EU will fail by default.

It never had a chance.

Multiculturalism, economic union, it's all fucking horseshit and people know it.

The EU serves thd elite, just look at the fucking mess the EU has created in the last decade.

It's a disaster and the elites still try and argue it makes sense.

They are crazy.

As Friedman correctly stated--it will never survive it's first crisis.[/quote]

But...
https://www.youtube.com/...p;list=RDDVg2EJvvlF8

Sure. Perhaps you're right

I do not think i've said anywhere that it did not require reform.

It should have stuck to the original free trade zone but the policy of ever closer financial and political union has led to where we are.

Either way though. On a day to day basis i lived in the uk for 30-35 years, was educated and trained there and spent 20 years working and the EU never once interfered in my daily commute, getting a coffee, getting a job or any other material facet of my life

I'm clear. I have skin in the game. I also suppprt free movement of people and goods. I consider myself european. I have homes in two countries. My kids are bi-lingual. I hold two passports. I make no secret of my support for the idea of the EU.

I think it needs reforming. I think in my lifetime views in the uk on travelling and accessing other countries have changed immeasurably and its been positive but not without cost

What i do not want is to back track to the 1950's when my grandfather first moved to london from dublin and the signs in boarding house doors were "no blacks, no dogs and no irish" and this referndum has brought out the worst on both sides resulting in a murder at the hands of a nutter

It wi take a long time for the country to move on and worse if its close we'll be doing this again before we know it

How many of the patients were foreign? Did that figure into the calculus? Just pay your doctors more and you won't have a problem filling the positions.

Lack of sovereignty is an abstract concept? You deserve to live in the EU and be part of the cataclysmic decoupling that will occur within 15 years. (France will be the catalyst for the implosion).

Yes. The relationship between need for clinicians and demand from demand foreign patients is not proportional

An orthopedic surgeon or anaethetist in london can make in excess of a million dollars a year. PCP's are on average the beat compensated drs in the uk

Sovereignty. If you work for a US company that handles dangerous goods. Where do you think the code of federal regulations comes from? DC? A multi-national panel of experts develops a set of international standards that the US adopts in order to be able to work internationally

Same is true of air, sea, rail, vehicle impact protection systems. The list is endless.

This idea that you can live in a bubble independent of the rest of the world is a fantasy

However- just so im clear and can be mis-represented again. The EU has grown in to a monster and requires reform but i do not think the way to deliver that is from outside

But is it capable of reform? THat is the problem with Bureaucracies. They don't change. Hell, the roman gov't bureaucracy outlasted the empire for centuries. This is the reason why when a new radical administration comes into place, the actual workings of gov't don't change. Take the whole Greek affair. Despite any outside objective opinion on the matter, the status quo largely remains there to the detriment of the rest of the union. There is a reason why some countries were better off before the union than others. I don't think the US would have formed with the disparities the different states show today if such that was the case then. Look at PR. The socalled 51st state. Nobody wants to bring in a territory that offers nothing and takes so much. Why would you do that?

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

I think that is possibly not far off the reality but the issue here is one of whats in the countries best financial interests and eliminating ourselves from the EU, not only puts that 44% of exports at some degree of unknown unquantifiable risk, but it actually also jeopardizes our ability to establish trade deals outside the EU. It wont be a case of the the UK trade and investment people rocking up in X countries asking for a deal. it will be UKTI sat outside a ministers office in SE Asia waiting for an appointment and the Brussels group sat in front of them offering a deal on the entire output of the remaining 27 EU countries

I do not know the answer to this, its a question of answering whats in my own interest and what I think is in the countries interest and I think it is to stay in, but I accept the future and continued direction of travel is both unsustainable and undesireable and there are half a dozen further countries that will continue to referendum after us - people are disassisfied, this is an opportunity for change and the german with no sense of humour, Schauble, has recognised this, I think we wait and see - if it all goes tits up in the next 10 years, we are not materially worse off, whatever we may save in EU expenses may be lost in GDP - its a wash, no one knows

Its got to change, I just do not think this is the way to go about it

The issue with staying in the EU is that back in 2000 54% of our exports went there compared with 44% now. The EU has been around for around 60 years in one form or another and still doesn't have a free trade deal with the US, China, India etc, etc. It's too preoccupied with it's internal crap and infighting to agree these deals among 28 countries all with their own special interests. Inside the EU we cannot negotiate our own trade deals as this is delegated to the EU. Outside we could strike bilateral deals which would be a great deal simpler and grow our trade further with the growing economies outside Europe. At the moment, the EU mainly suits the Germans who get a very competitive exchange rate for there massive export industry, on the backs of the misery for most of Southern Europe.

That 44% of our exports is the reason it's been so hard to get growing properly as we're tied to a failing trading bloc. We're better off out before we are dragged down with the rest of Europe. They'll be temporary adjustments, but in the long term we'll be better off trading with those parts of the world that are growing, rather than remaining within the EU tariff wall. 15-20% of our exports currently go to the US without any trade agreement or implementation of US regulations into US law. Only the companies that want to export to the US need to follow the rules for the US market. With the EU every company has to conform to the EU regulations even though only 6% actually export to the EU.

EU is incapable of the level of change and reform that is needed without a huge kick up the arse. Heck, even when the UK government was trying to negotiate some minor changes in order to make a strong case for remaining at the referendum, they basically gave them nothing. Brexit might provide the necessary incentive, if that doesn't happen then it's really a question of when, not if, the next crisis comes along to force it's hand. That could be one of the other major countries holding a referendum, or a financial crisis in one of the Eurozone countries (Greece already in crisis but not big enough to cause breakup).

Best case scenario that I can see is a crisis which drives the core countries that want "ever closer union" into forming their own currency zone and basically becoming a federation of states. That probably means France, Germany, Belgium, Luxembourg and a few others (probably Netherlands but they're getting more Eurosceptic themselves these days). The rest of the EU reverts to being more of a trading zone. Common agreements where it makes sense i.e. trade agreements, common fishing policy, collaboration on policing and counter-terrorism, etc., but keeping their own currency, control of their own tax and spending, their own borders, etc.

What time do the polls close and how quickly are results tallied?

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I miss YaHey

10 pm UK time, Sunderland by midnight, all by 5am I think, they'll come in tranches

Mackems will vote brexit.

Never going to be a clean break or reform, whenever or however it happens. Too many vested interests in the EU, and too much emotion on both sides for it not to get messy. If it breaks up via individual countries leaving by referendum, then the campaigns will get nastier and nastier as they try to hold it together. If it breaks up due to financial crisis making the Euro untenable there will be hundreds of billions wasted in trying to bail it out before they accept the inevitable. The other possibilities are even worse - riots, revolutions, etc. I keep thinking that the Spain situation can't go on - youth unemployment has been over 40% since 2010, having that many young men sitting around with nothing to do is going to flare up at some point.