Riding with a bunch of other cat 1/2's Tuesday, asked what is countersteering, all said the same thing, lean outside the corner with your bodyweight while pressing into the turn with the handlebars. Of course the only guy who had a different definition is a professional stunt rider who actually explained real counter steering.

"Riding with a bunch of other cat 1/2's Tuesday"

back door brag ;-)

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I think in the context of bicycles, this is blown out of proportion. A bicycle turns pretty intuitively, at least for me is does. The counter steering action is so subtle when I turn shrpl;y it don;t notice I'm doing it, because it requires so little force.

I've ridden 30mph, positive camber, downhill sweepers no handed on a road bike (its actually a very cool feeling). However, I suspect that to initiate the turn I engaged in countersteering to a degree.

But I can't reenforce enough that on a heavier motorcycles with wide tires, it simply will not turn or change it's line at higher speeds without actively counter steering. This is where it's critical.

Aggressively countersteering on a relatively flexible frame at higher speeds is downright dangerous. It's a good way to initiate a oscillation you might not be able to pull out of and there's so little mass involved, it simply doesn't require that much force.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

This requires countersteering (2-up with luggage... ~1000 lbs of people and machinery)

[URL=http://s227.photobucket.com/...a/DealsGap2.jpg.html][/url]


[URL=http://s227.photobucket.com/...a/DealsGap1.jpg.html][/url]


This requires a lot less... especially when still aero. Note the position of the legs. Also the head position on the motorcycle and bicycle... it's up the road. But on the bike, your torso and body is relaxed to soak up bumps. You have to allow the bike to move under you a little.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

I did the same thing riding with a bunch of other Cat 1-2s, and they all said the same thing, "STFU, and just bomb the hill."

This seems like such a stretch in so many different ways


If we're just going to arbitrarily throw out made up assertions, I'll add some: Most riders aren't crashing to begin with. Most riders that do crash are doing it very infrequently.

Of those "not most" crashes that do occur, how many could have been avoided with your counter steering assertion?

My guess would not be "most".

Most crashes I see in races are pure user error: terrible line and over taking a turn or sliding out, no not applicable to your assertion, and hitting wheels (may or not be applicable) or having nowhere to go and hitting someone else. Most of the crashes I see in pro races are the same.

I really don't see how your notion of countersteering and not crashing is relevant in most crashes.

Agreed. I was using hyperbole to respond to the claim that everyone who rides a bike counter steers. While that is true on one level. I think that most have not practiced "abrupt handlebar induced emergency counter steer" and have never performed that maneuver. In truth, most will never need the skill. On the other hand, I think it is a good thing to practice in case it is needed.

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Dan I like that video because he stresses BALANCE and I want to stay with that for a minute and avoid the "C word" (counter-steer). I'm also gonna skip the suggestions that someone take up motocross or GP or take a decade to master alpine skiing. Both newbies and those who are brilliant swimmers or runners but super limited on their cycling skills can be instructed to obtain these skills - and balance is at the heart of this whole discussion. To be a good at descending or cornering or carrying speed through a descending turn - start with a narrow corridor and have the athlete lean the bike to one side while while staying within that corridor. The balance (and again, I'm avoiding the C word) will be discovered in just a few safe, easy progressions on flat ground and then progress to a 90 degree turn on flat ground and then take that into descending. The video below is one of the drills we'll be teaching coaches at the Slowtwitch Coaching seminar on bike skills in Denver on August 4 & 5.

(55sec, Lean Balance, Narrow Corridor).


Ian

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

i think i mentioned in an earlier post that the ONE thing you can do, OTHER than the c word, when you find yourself in very tight quarters and need to ride a straight line, is to lean your body waaaay over to one side. it is all a question of balance (i'm looking foooor, someone to change my liiiiiife). contrary to the claims of so many people in the past, it isn't gyroscopic forces, or trail, that makes a bike rideable. the b word may not be as incendiary as the c word but they're rooted in the same idea.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I admittedly haven't read every post in this thread, but to describe "balance" in a "vehicle dynamics" context is to say that something has "static" and "dynamic" stability.

Static stability is like a ball sitting inside a bowl in that a disturbance away from its natural position will result in it naturally returning to the same position, whereas statically unstable is like a ball resting atop of another ball, where a disturbance will cause the ball to roll away and never return.

Dynamic stability concerns itself with how disturbances manifest themselves on the vehicle over time, diverging, oscillating (diminishing, constant, or growing in amplitude), or settling into a new equilibrium.

So, while one particular thing like gyroscopic forces, or trail aren't sufficient to "make a bike rideable" (read: close to statically stable, with none or predictable oscillations towards an equilibrium "close" to the original state before a disturbance), steering / roll coupling and the relationship that a bicycle's geometry creates with respect to the rider's center of mass and inertia from a disturbance ultimately creates "balance" which may ask a little, or a lot of the cyclist.

Chatting about this stuff is cool, don't get me wrong! I just feel that the issue that Slowman has with inconsistent use of language regarding counter-steering is inevitable when speaking "casually" about complex things, and the only path to understanding is eventually putting the math to the ground. I do think that with some modest trig background, people can properly digest the mathematical results provided someone else derives and can explain them properly.

"I do think that with some modest trig background, people can properly digest the mathematical results provided someone else derives and can explain them properly."

if someone supplies the modest trig, i'll supply the space to host it ;-)

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

While understanding the math is never a bad thing, I don't think it's necessary here to clarify the language.

Countersteering is how bikes turn. While there are various variations on the practice that may be more suitable for different situations, it is not a distinct technique different than "normal turning." That's Slowman's primary thesis here, and no math is required.

Thanks for getting me an out from explaining root-locus plots 101 :D

You might find this interesting:

http://www.nature.com/news/the-bicycle-problem-that-nearly-broke-mathematics-1.20281

that is a really nice article. thanks for sharing. i don't know that i ever met jim, but i remember him as a gentleman and a very smart guy on rec.bicycles.tech. i enjoy people who respect tradition but challenge it anyway.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

That's extremely interesting. I just skimmed, but it's the first time I've seen the difference between low-speed and higher-speed steering discussed. You definitely don't countersteer in the parking lot as you circle around waiting for the group ride to start, and they explain that in their paper.

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Brian

Gonna buy a fast car, put on my lead boots, take a long, long drive
I may end up spending all my money, but I'll still be alive

One of the footnotes in that article leads to another paper of Jim's on high-speed shimmy, whose abstract reads (emphasis added)

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Wow, fascinating article.

Thanks for the link !

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i'm not certain, but i *think* that is essentially in line with my experience: stiff systems withstand shimmy, flexy systems invite shimmy. i don't experience shimmy on my bikes anymore, because i ride newer monocoque carbon bikes, regardless of wheels, tires, frame geometry. i'm not saying shimmy can't happen with these bikes, but if they do i suspect the bending moment or fulcrum around which the oscillation occurs just moves to the flexible appendage (stem, steer column, whatever). i don't ride bikes (at least road bikes) that have flexible front ends, so i don't get shimmy.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Dan, I agree with your first statement here but disagree with the second. Countersteering is turning in one direction while your wheel is pointed in the opposite direction. It only works at speed, with a strong lean. When I took my Motorcycle Safety Foundation class, the instructor demonstrated countersteering by spinning a bicycle wheel in his hands. He pushed the axle with his right hand, and the wheel turned left but leaned right. Similarly, push the handlebar with your right hand, the bike leans right, and you go right. On a bicycle, the sensation is not nearly as strong as on a motorcycle. On bicycle I think in terms of lean more than countersteer. And to your point, I'm "doing it", but not consciously. If I look down, however, I can tell that my front wheel is ever-so-slightly pointed in the direction opposite of my turn.

One more thing - on a bicycle, the lean initiates the countersteer, on a motorcycle the countersteer initiates the lean.

As a rider of both, I disagree. Force applied to the handlebars comes first.

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Brian

Gonna buy a fast car, put on my lead boots, take a long, long drive
I may end up spending all my money, but I'll still be alive